When did FFXI jump the shark?

[Celeras]

tiamat / jormy / vrtra not having any good drops worth the time

I agree with everything but that. I think gaiters are a nice drop for the full time mages of linkshells and the drop rate isn't that bad.

And anyway, you're the one who made a post about getting your hands on a pair on your LJ! You seemed quite happy to me.

Ya I have them but they're still not a reasonable drop. These things should drop off something equivalent to a simurgh type of monster, not off Tiamat. I still don't see Tiamat's loot pool justifying the effort needed to kill him. Gaiters are still a toy in my eyes.

I like my noritsune kote x.x Dont poke Mamool Lurkers without them!

[Tomino]

SE worst was to toss all new EU players (like me) among endgame JPs and NAs. funny enough, that was with the release of lolcursed CoP. this was plain stupid, cruel (basically you are at the mercy of lv75 players, and lv100 crafters) and lacking even the slightest glimps of customer care; the JPs had a world to explore, the EU (that payed for the same game) had everything spoiled, monopolized and already done.

[Norelco]

I say the game jumped the shark on the BST nerf. (a.k.a MPK changes)

[Francisco II]

"PS2 Limitations"

[Talint]

I don't like the fact that I spent 2years getting rare gear just to have it stripped by some "artifical challenge".

There is a lot of truth in this statement.

Anything that seems to be challenging in FFXI, usually comes with some kind of handicap. 80% of CoP, for example, is all level restrictions (and trying to manage multiple sets of equipment before a moglocker). Salvage is walking into an area naked and trying to get all your stuff back. CoP Dynamis rips off your subjob.

We, the gamers, have analyzed the game to death. We've figured out weaponskill formulas to pop conditions, and a whole lot else. The lack of implementing endgame content at a regular and equal pace has made gamers crunch though Zilart stuff until everybody's WHM has a Ridill/D.Ring. The best the developers seem to come up with to counter what is an amazingly smart playerbase (did I really just say that? ) is to make pop windows longer, handicap the player, or to minimalize any potential reward given.

Myself? I like the original Dynamis. The original Dynamis is challenging without being super difficult. Everybody with a job over 65 can participate in it, and there's nothing really handicapping a player as they go in. While they could do a better job of AF dropping in certain areas (I'm looking at you, icelands), there is sufficient stuff there to keep players interested in for a long time.

So, in regards to the question at hand, it seems FFXI jumped the shark when Squenix stopped understanding game balance, which seemed to be around the CoP area (though could easily be in the late Zilart area as well).

[Kurp]

tiamat / jormy / vrtra not having any good drops worth the time

I agree with everything but that. I think gaiters are a nice drop for the full time mages of linkshells and the drop rate isn't that bad.

And anyway, you're the one who made a post about getting your hands on a pair on your LJ! You seemed quite happy to me.

Ya I have them but they're still not a reasonable drop. These things should drop off something equivalent to a simurgh type of monster, not off Tiamat. I still don't see Tiamat's loot pool justifying the effort needed to kill him. Gaiters are still a toy in my eyes.

If the loot pool isn't 'justifying the effort needed' then why are shells racing to kill her or even camping towards the end of the window? It's because Tiamat's pool is really f'n good. Mages and monks would kill each other if you tossed a pair of those boots into a crowded room. It's not all about how much they'll increase your merit party speed or decrease you 120th Fafnir kill time.

Gaiters should drop off Simurgh-type at this point in the game? lol. The game can't progress a whole lot more gear wise unless it's ultra-rare stuff. They put in some average-above average gears like Tatami, Galliard, Uggalepih Pendant in CoP off 'Simurgh type' monsters. I think Gaiters own all that crap. I know it does since people pine over the shoes, but you never hear anyone crying about Galliard Trousers. That pair of boots is definitely Tiamat worthy in my opinion.

It kind of fits a +Movement speed progression too. Striders were off a tough kill back then (Simurgh). Next thing that was introduced was Crimson Cuisses, off a monster that is multiple steps up. The third was Herald's Gaitors... yet another monster at another level. The fourth, Skandi boots(?) haven't been completed as of yet, but it's no walk in the park. The fifth set (better be WAR and SAM usable <_<) will probably even be more difficult.

Noritsune Kote are a nice consolation drop. Really, Tiamat was a home run by the devs.

I can't say the same for Jormungand though. Vrtra would still be pimp if some retard didn't put those subligar desynths into the game. Yigit doesn't help either heh.

[Damane]

when SE didnt care to make Region-specific servers like EU NA and JP only servers. The fact that you CANT do anything big in EU maintime (my playtime), due to lack of people, killed the game for me. I am not up anymore to do shit in NA maintime when its past 00:00 GMT+1. Thanks for the offer but I'll have to pass, I did this hardcore shit for 2 years.
I just did quit last week and started WoW on a UK server. its nice its revarding from the beginning, and its not such a fucking big time hammer, and there is LOTS of people in my main time to play with.
Tough I must admit SE is starting to do things right wiht salvage, but then again lack of EU people for salvage runs in Eu time . 3 Years of FFXI I am done.

[Midnightjade]

80% of CoP, for example, is all level restrictions (and trying to manage multiple sets of equipment before a moglocker).

QFT, and you can't even access your locker from the Safehold.

[BRP]

When I said "become WoW", I didn't mean just borrow some things for the end-game. I mean FFXI converting into that whole (sub-)sub-genre of MMORPG.

80% of CoP capped? More like 50% of the areas released, 80% of the missions, and 40% of the content.

This game is most balance now than it's ever been(which could still use a lot work). Main game and RoZ content was horribly unbalanced.

Anyway, I'm perfectly fine with "caps", especially if its not level cap for endgame stuff. While Salvage is a bit extreme, I disagree greatly with the 'artificial' challenge statement. The hardest challenges in RPGs involve fighting handicapped.

This is rather offtopic.

[Amastacia]

Salvage is like a CoP Dyna ^2 for me, except Salvage has good rewards somewhere down the end, but goddamn a whole lot of locked stuff on your char when you start a Salvage. CoP Dyna looks good now with just a subjob lock that takes a few mins to unlock.

Hardly. Unlike limbus, the mobs are quite scaled down, and most mobs are very weak in there, only zone I can see actually demanding more than 2 mnk is silver sea / arrapago, otherwise they're quite ok.

They're still new, and people still are trying to find information, the majority of people however are vultures and won't try to discover something new, they'd prefer someone else to do the dirty work as they swoop and reap the benefits without using a dash of brainwork.

I think some things still need balance before Salvage is spot-on, but LW is right here.

Do some exploring, try to map out the zones, what drops where (both in terms of cells and set-item drops), what pops where, which mob types are in which paths, etc.

Once it's firmly established that it's "too hard" or that the progression is unreasonably slow, then go ahead and whine about it.

Frankly, I think it's a lot of fun so long as you're smart about it (still need to cap my effin' h2h on NIN so I'm useful at the beginning, heh), and once people do it more regularly so it's as well mapped and understood as Dynamis, we'll see plenty of awesome new gear floating around on the players who can be bothered to it. Of course, then we'll have the leeches who couldn't be bothered to do the zones until it was all figured out for them, but that's gonna happen regardless. At least you'll be able to tell who is up for the challenge and willing to do the grunt work: while you're still dreaming about your Ares body, the people who're exploring now will be wearing it.

[Lordwafik]

If the loot pool isn't 'justifying the effort needed' then why are shells racing to kill her or even camping towards the end of the window? It's because Tiamat's pool is really f'n good.

Not really, more because it's "HNM syndrome".

Example : "Omg <HNM> is up and unclaimed! We need to kill it even though the gear changes almost nothing to the jobs wearing it!"

Mages and monks would kill each other if you tossed a pair of those boots into a crowded room. It's not all about how much they'll increase your merit party speed or decrease you 120th Fafnir kill time.

Yeah dumb mages and monks, but people who understand the overhype of +movement items know they're nothing special. They'll save you a slight bit of time getting to places, or save you some silent oils so you can train, but hardly changes kite fights for HNM. WHM? They should have learned the "Square within the circle" pitstops for kite fights. BLM? Yay they can now solo Apollyon NW better. MNK? I dont know, really I don't. SMN? yeah ok.

Gaiters should drop off Simurgh-type at this point in the game? lol. The game can't progress a whole lot more gear wise unless it's ultra-rare stuff.

Don't see why not. Simmy drops boots, Kirin drops legs, both increase movement speed, both the same +movement, just for alternate jobs. Timmy however does drop the most useless +movement speed in the game, as it affects almost nothing. At least thief has more use for striders, like flee kiting stuff, pld's have more use for crimson for kite fights, herald ??????. I have them and they're very overrated. I didn't equip them and turn into superman.

They put in some average-above average gears like Tatami, Galliard, Uggalepih Pendant in CoP off 'Simurgh type' monsters. I think Gaiters own all that crap. I know it does since people pine over the shoes, but you never hear anyone crying about Galliard Trousers. That pair of boots is definitely Tiamat worthy in my opinion.

You don't hear people pine over trousers because you can pop it as many times as you like. Do you think people would cry for gaiters if you could get them off Gration?

It kind of fits a +Movement speed progression too. Striders were off a tough kill back then (Simurgh). Next thing that was introduced was Crimson Cuisses, off a monster that is multiple steps up. The third was Herald's Gaitors... yet another monster at another level. The fourth, Skandi boots(?) haven't been completed as of yet, but it's no walk in the park. The fifth set (better be WAR and SAM usable <_<) will probably even be more difficult.

Not disagreeing there, but herald gaiters as the sole good drop off some mega fire breathing HNM? Not amazing bodypeices like kirin? Not amazing firey shields that have +fire resist or whatever? His drops don't even make sense. His drops look like SE picked them out of a hat.

Noritsune Kote are a nice consolation drop. Really, Tiamat was a home run by the devs.

Shame those kote are usually outperformed by something from a lvl40 NM.

I can't say the same for Jormungand though. Vrtra would still be pimp if some retard didn't put those subligar desynths into the game. Yigit doesn't help either heh.

All CoP wyrm loot sucks, I'll fight them any day for fun, though.

Actually all CoP wyrm loot except for Ouryu and Bahamut, they actually got that one right.

[Avé]

For me, FFXI "jumped the shark" sometime after I stopped being a newblet and started figuring things out. I think the only downside to XI is that it is a MMO, and that SE got a little carried away with overpowering items too early (like in the rest of their games, but it can't work that way in a MMO).

Sure the storyline and cutscenes were nice, especially CoP, and playing with other people is fun, but that's about it.

[Quicklet]

Anyway, I'm perfectly fine with "caps", especially if its not level cap for endgame stuff. While Salvage is a bit extreme, I disagree greatly with the 'artificial' challenge statement. The hardest challenges in RPGs involve fighting handicapped.

The problem with CoP, other capped content in FFXI, and "artificial limitations" a la CoP Dynamis, is that the reward for doing them often was not commensurate with the hassle or difficulty. Particularly with CoP missions, even though they were nerfed to a pretty easy level after a while, the biggest hassle about them, especially if you were part of an LS that was trying to help people through missions, was having to find the room to carry 5 different sets of level cap gear. Other annoyances about level capping were the fact that you were dependent on having certain jobs available to deal with some things (no WHM = no Erase/Teleport/Raise) and that CoP specific mobs often used debuffs that were much more annoying than non-CoP mobs.

The rule that should be followed when it comes to thinks like gimping abilities/stats/etc., is that the rewards you get from those areas should make subsequent trips easier. It's clear that ToAU has already been a major step forward from the disaster that was CoP, even if it still isn't enough to change everything around. The rewards from Salvage are in theory infinitely better than what you can get from CoP Dynamis, and the difficulty factor in ungimping yourself is a lot more manageable and less arbitrary.

It'll be interesting to see what SE comes up with for the remainder of ToAU endgame. If it follows the rest of what's been going on in ToAU, it probably won't be spectacular but at the same time it will hardly be the painful experience that sea was.

[Ehran]

Don't see why not. Simmy drops boots, Kirin drops legs, both increase movement speed, both the same +movement, just for alternate jobs. Timmy however does drop the most useless +movement speed in the game, as it affects almost nothing. At least thief has more use for striders, like flee kiting stuff, pld's have more use for crimson for kite fights, herald ??????. I have them and they're very overrated. I didn't equip them and turn into superman.

This statement seems to characterize XI endgame. From a design perspective success is dictated by how well you work with the other members of your alliance, not on the equipment that you're wearing. That's the primary draw for events like Salvage, and level capped missions like CoP, it's a dynamic change of gameplay.

[Xavier]

I'm curious, did Happy Days ever "improve" after it jumped the shark or was it all downhill from there?

Because while I would certainely argue that FFXI "jumped the shark" when Tiamat / Jorm / Jailers were released to have shitty / non 100% drops, but I would also argue that things like limbus, assault, salvage, cerb/khimaira definitely put the game back in the right direction.

So I don't think the term really applies here if "jumping the shark" can only lead to ultimate failure.

______________________________________

Zilart - Relatively perfect.

- "Ground NMs", Serket, Overlord, Roc that were killable by groups still leveling up to 75 that also had reasonably good drops at the time of release.

- "3 Kings", King Behemoth, Fafhog, Aspid all released and have the unquestionably best armor in the game. Fights are designed relatively well to be challenging at the time, and the reward surely matches the effort. Their big downful is that they aren't instanced and are on a 1~10 day window if you're counting HQ chances, making the gear rare (which is ok) and the NMs heavily botted (which isn't).

- Dynamis is pretty much perfectly designed, although the reuse of the existing zones and changing the hue to a darker color isn't very original, the AF2 is mostly improvements to existing gear for jobs. Relic creates an increadible timesink for players, although most of them have questionable benefits.
______________________________________

CoP - Showed signs of promise it never realized until the 11th hour when it was too late.

- "CoP Wyrms", Tiamat, Jorm, Vrtra are all released, to a lot of hype they never live up to. They are considerably harder than 3 Kings, are on a much larger pop window, don't drop abjurations, and don't drop any gear that could be considered an improvement except for BRD JSE, which you can desynth anyway.

- "Sea", which could have been 100% identical to sky and still have been awesome is instead released as a "Sky for those who hate themselves", by making the path to everything similar to Byakko, the droprates far below 100%, lack of synth drops, etc. Saving grace is the notion that JoL drops very good earrings, the Sea Torques are pretty good (but not 100%), and AV has an absolutely amazing treasure pool. But wait, AV is nearly impossible to kill, and constantly patched to broken status.

- "CoP Dynamis" comes out, which, if done properly could have been great, but was retarded in nature. Rather than mimicing the original Dynamis in new zones, random "stupid-factors" are introduced to try and make it more challenging, by making you touch a ??? to get subjobs back and lowering the time allowed. More than that, almost all of the AF2+1 blows.

- "ENMs", which have sightly annoying key item conditions, and even more annoying treasure pool droprates, are still a nice addition to help players make money.

- "Limbus" is the saving grace of CoP, with really great rewards all around. Nothing to say except I don't see how people who could design a system like Limbus could have designed the rest of CoP.

- Ouryu and Bahamut take everything that was wrong with CoP Wyrms (retarded conditions to fight, bad loot) and fix it. Fights are both fun and rewarding.

______________________________________

ToAU - So far, so good.

- "Assault", an instanced, tiered system, is often fun, often annoying, but has rewards that while not exactly better than existing gear in a lot of cases, are easily an alternative if you don't have access to them.

- Cerb, Khimaira both have drops that make them worth killing, and have a shorter respawn time than CoP Wyrms. Hydra remains a painful reminder of CoP.

- "Salvage", while I wish it were more like the original dynamis, that is, you enter with all of your gear and simply strategically clear the zone, has the saving grace of eventually rewarding players with gear that not only rivals 3 King gear, but in a lot of instances surpasses it. Potential to limit 3 Kings "exclusive" gear to ridill and d. ring.

[Khamsin]

We're assuming it's even jumped the shark at all.

For me, that will happen when SE just gives everyone what they want without regard for balance just to keep people from quitting. That's more in the true spirit of the phrase.

They haven't pulled any stunts for ratings yet.

[Siatdiat]

Potential to limit 3 Kings "exclusive" gear to ridill and d. ring.

Don't forget Black belt.

[Ivaden]

For me, FFXI jumped the shark when I couldn't find a party that didn't spam retarded 4chan memes like they were going out of style.

[Xavier]

Potential to limit 3 Kings "exclusive" gear to ridill and d. ring.

Don't forget Black belt.

Black Belt isn't limited to 3 Kings, I didn't forget it, its not.

297 Kindred Seals can get you a Black Belt. 297 Kindred Seals will not get you a Ridill or D. Ring.

[Isildur]

We're assuming it's even jumped the shark at all.

For me, that will happen when SE just gives everyone what they want without regard for balance just to keep people from quitting. That's more in the true spirit of the phrase.

They haven't pulled any stunts for ratings yet.

I like to believe SE is at least trying to make an effort with FFXI, Salvage armor outshines alot of the RotZ abjs and at least its a step in the right direction. With the newer content, i'd say SE made ToAU full of win and even more potential than RotZ....i do think SE still has a long way to go to prevent alot of diehard endgame players from quitting due to lack of new content, but to me i think its worth it to stick it out until they release said content.