Samurai Weaponskills: STR+ versus ATK+

[TB]

I think the obvious answer to all your questions is:

Use Gekko on Wyrms, cause they don't like flowers.

[XxSlusherxx]

or kasha?

edit:I don't get it

[VZX]

You must take a very very hard assumption that the distribution of variance must be the same throughout the battle (i.e. when one setup hit for 420, the other one that give 4 more damage from the calculation will hit for 424. and whenever the other setup hit for 400, then the other one must hit for 404).

The problem on getting true best solution for random data is almost impossible if we can't make assumption that the random value will always be generated the same way.

I mean.. do you really care about getting 10 more damage on average but the variance is as large as 50~75 damage?

And some people might be right about Yuki, Gekko, Kasha that they Gekko is the most likely dealing the highest damage despite they're the exact same formula.

Talking about randomness...

[XxSlusherxx]

And some people might be right about Yuki, Gekko, Kasha that they Gekko is the most likely dealing the highest damage despite they're the exact same formula.

for those of you late to the party this was alredy proven in another thread. to a point anyway, the sample size was small and more tests need to be one

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/viewt...=asc&start=340 page 18 is when data starts to show up.

[Ryko]

or kasha?

edit:I don't get it

It's a quote from a long ass time ago on the old boards, I came to the realization that gekko does more damage on wyrms than kasha because dragons don't like flowers.

[ubermonkey]

Could you plug through the data for hachiman +1? My totally non sam blm self wants to see it for completeness.

[archibaldcrane]

Whoa whoa whoa...there's one huge problem here that I see right off the bat.

If you're dealing with a 300 def mob, and you're WSing naked without food or buffs, yeah Byrnie+1 will help a shitload because your atk/def ratio blows.

If you have double minuets on, eat meat and /war for berserk and your attack is 645+, Byrnie+1 will do shite for you. The level corrected atk/def ratio caps at 2.0, which will put your pDIF ranging between 1.6 and 2.4. To get a level corrected atk/def ratio of 2.0 (the cap) vs. a level 78 mob with 300 defense, you need 645 attack.

melee ratio = atk/def - (.05 X level difference)

melee ratio = 645/300 - (.05 X 78-75)

melee ratio = 2.15 - .15

melee ratio = 2.0

Anything higher than 2.0 for the melee ratio will not give pDIF ranges greater than 1.6 to 2.4 for non-critical hits. In your calculations where you give the monster 150 defense, your melee ratio will be capped at 2.0, but it looks like your calculations aren't capping it, giving yourself pDIF #s that are not attainable for non-crits.

Now, you might say, what if I sub thief? When you critical on your WS, as SA+WS will do, you only need a level-adjusted melee ratio of 1.7ish to have a chance at the maximum possible crit pDIF (of 3.0) - for a 300 def. mob this would be an attack of 555 - very attainable with double minuets and meat.

Another thing is that in your examples, such as

ie: STR+11:

(75 + (60+11 - 75 + 9)/2 + .83(.75)(60+11) ) * 2.5 * (371/300 - .15)
= 330.6

ATK+20 instead:

(75 + (60 - 75 + 10)/2 + .83(.75)(60) ) * 2.5 * (391/300 - .15)
= 316

STR+11 is going to give 5 or 6 attack as well as 11 STR. Osode will give you 5 atk on top of the 10 STR it gives. Haubergeon+1 gives 6 STR and 15 "real" attack - 12 from +atk and 3 from 6 STR.

You ground alot of math to do this, and that's admirable. But since you are basing it on a real XP mob, try to set up more real, or ideal, xp situations - generally double minuets and food (meat) as that is what everyone is basically striving for. Don't forget that 2STR=1ATK when you're doing your calcs, and watch out for level adjusted atk/def ratio capping.

Example of how melee ratio caps affect your calcs:

What about the reverse? Where the mobs VIT and defense are incredibly low. VIT=55, Defense=150:
Code:

Hachiman: 957
Togi: 959
Hauby: 965
Osode: 969.5
Byrnie: 975
Hauby+1: 984
Byrnie+1: 1007

The usual order of things.

Let's break down your Osode calculation here:

(75 + (109-55+4)/2 + .83 * (.75*109)) * 2.5 ((361/150) -.15)

The area I bolded caps at 2.0. Anything beyond 2.0 is meaningless, as it will not push your pDIF range higher than 1.6-2.4. However, you didn't cap it, giving you:


(104 + 67.8525) * 2.5 * (2.5666666)
=171.8525*5.641666666666
=969.53452<--the result of neglecting to cap melee ratio

However, if you properly cap your melee ratio at 2.0, you'll get

(104 + 67.8525) * 2.5 * (2.0)
=171.8525*5.0
=859.2625<--the correct answer for Osode in your setup

Now for Byrnie+1

Incorrectly:
(75 + (104-55+4)/2 + .83 * (.75*104)) * 2.5 ((386/150) -.15)

(101.5 + 64.74) * 2.5 * (2.4233333)
= 166.24 * 6.05833333
= 1007.137333

Correctly:
(75 + (104-55_4/2 + .83 * (.75*104)) * 2.5 ((2.0))
= 166.24 * 5.0
= 831.2

In this scenario - where the mob has low VIT and DEF, Osode > Byrnie+1, 859 to 831.

Ok, it's 5:53 a.m. and I fucking hate you for inticing me to stay up this late. I think my math is all right, but if not it's cause I'm shaking I'm so tired.

[Sifer]

capped attack arguments are pointless, nobody cares about most damage on forest hares.

idk about SAM WSs but alot of the attack+ gear is actually better for guillotine(byrnie+1 > haub+1 if u ignore the acc).

whenever i need to decide between 2 peices i just use the KI calculator, and i always assume im fighting a quite high level mob cos i dont care aout the low level ones.

I'm not going to even read both your formulas and see whos right, i cba XD i'll just assume OP forgot the cap >_> but anyway, you can compare any 2 peices w/o doing the whole mathmatical calculation everytime >_>

as for gekko

i'll assume level 82 mob with 300 def and 70 vit
i'll also assume 85 DMG gkt, 400 attack (seems to be high for a SAM from your stats >_>) and 75 STR, i'll always assume 300 TP

keep in mind player and mob stats arent real so numbers could be too high/low as a result of that

w/o osode or byrine, damage= 396
with osode, damage=416
with byrnie, damage=429
with byrnie+1, damage=439

if the calculator wasnt accurate, blame KI

EDIT: typos and stuff

[TB]

I think it's common knowledge that STR raises your damage cap, while attack helps you too reach that cap.

On HNM it doesn't matter if you have 140,150 or even 200 STR as SAM, cause you will never have the attack to back it up. That is the point where you probably want to switch to more attack instead of STR.

If a BRD goes Soul Voice I always ask for Minuets instead of STR Etudes.

[Sifer]

I think it's common knowledge that STR raises your damage cap, while attack helps you too reach that cap.

On HNM it doesn't matter if you have 140,150 or even 200 STR as SAM, cause you will never have the attack to back it up. That is the point where you probably want to switch to more attack instead of STR.

If a BRD goes Soul Voice I always ask for Minuets instead of STR Etudes.

i thought it was common knowledge that that is BS lol

[Medivac]

i saw all those numbers. didnt bother to read. but good for u and all ur hard work

[SamanosukeShiva]

STR>Atk, more attack is just more constant #WS on high lvl mobs. But if u eat atk food, u wont feel the difference.

edit: if you're a full merit sam, u should eat atk food anyway, cept faf/nid maybe.

[TB]

I think it's common knowledge that STR raises your damage cap, while attack helps you too reach that cap.

On HNM it doesn't matter if you have 140,150 or even 200 STR as SAM, cause you will never have the attack to back it up. That is the point where you probably want to switch to more attack instead of STR.

If a BRD goes Soul Voice I always ask for Minuets instead of STR Etudes.

i thought it was common knowledge that that is BS lol

You going to tell me that your 76+1xx Soul Voiced Gekko (cause Dragons don't like fowers) will do way more damage than your 76+7x on something like a CoP Wyrm? It probably will do more, since those STR Etudes will add some attack.

With 76+71 STR my Gekko caps somewhere close to 1500. Why do I never see this number on Kirin or a Wyrm? Because these mobs have way higher DEF and I'm lacking the attack to back up all that STR.

So you mean I can eat Sushi and get some STR Etudes because attack doesn't mean anything? Yarite...

[Luftiig]

I noticed atk does alot of lower level weapon skills, Was meriting as SAM 75 and I was joking around and using koki lol I did a few 1k koki in mire....was really surprising. As for WSing I usually base my dmg on what im doing to kirin. Anyone know if osode really gets out parsed by byrnie+1 for a kirin fight?

[Kawfee]

To Archibald:

Thanks, you made some excellent points and you're right, I had some glaring oversights.

I can't believe I forgot 2 STR = 1 ATK when I was doing this. I'll have to take that into consideration.

I didn't understand the pDIF cap completely, I thought it was capped at 2.4, but the way you phrase it as 2.0 +/- .4 makes sense to add in the variability. And what you're saying is, for a Critical hit, the cap is raised to 3.0, correct?

I also didn't really think about having minuets on and stuff, I'll try running through these all again with a "base" attack of 540.

What do you think are acceptable numbers for a Sea Puk, or for a Wyrm?

Are the guesses of 75 VIT and 300 Defense probably pretty good? (for Puk)

Gotta go to work now :T

[Meat]

What does Royo use with Tachi: Kaiten ? that's the right answer

[Khamsin]

or kasha?

edit:I don't get it

It's a quote from a long ass time ago on the old boards, I came to the realization that gekko does more damage on wyrms than kasha because dragons don't like flowers.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g2...ero/lolmap.jpg

They must love sashes, then.

[Therin]

Sounds pretty interesting, even if there are slight miscalculations.

Next, you should find out whether or not I should be WSing in Hauby, Hecatomb body, Byrnie, or lolPlastron on my DRK (not that I have all of those - just for the sake of observation). <_<

[Agony]

Very simple for me, when im SATA or just SA i go all STR+, when just TA or /war or /drg i balance it out between str acc and att and i wouldn't have it any other way. Ditch the numbers and the graphs you'll hurt yourself.....

[Aladwar]

Yukikaze/Gekko/Kasha are 75% STR based, but, let me break down how Attack and STR affect your weaponskill damage first.STR increases your maximum damage, the maximum damage a weaponskill (in the case of the WS stated above) can do. Attack raises the damage floor, meaning the LOWEST damage you can deal is ultimately higher, hence making your damage more consistent.

Personally, I've between 76+64/69 STR on /THF depending on what setup I am using, with full merits (excluding Enmity and HP). My attack (using Attack food, usually Yellow Curry, Bison Steak or Sis Kebabi) in weaponskill gear is around 450-470.