Samurai Weaponskills: STR+ versus ATK+

[Toth]

Needs more Chiz to prove you all are wrong and he of course is right.

Fascinating finds though. Slightly off topic, but has there been a MNK discussion like this regarding STR and attack on Asuran Fists/ Dragon Kick?

[Therin]

You really can't compare them in the same fashion because Asuran Fists is so many hits.

Generally the WS gear of someone /THF (if MNKs even do that anymore... I dunno) is STR and some attack because you're pretty much guaranteed to land your hit, but Asuran Fists needs to be used in conjunction with at least some degree of accuracy gear.

As for Dragon Kick specifically, though, I'm assuming the best gear setup would be stacking STR and some VIT in slots in which you can't necessarily get more STR. Osode would obviously be your best choice because it appeals to both modifiers. I'm positive Osode would be a stronger body piece than some attack piece, like Shura Togi, because of that reason.

But then again, I'm no MNK. *Shrug*

[Khamsin]

You really can't compare them in the same fashion because Asuran Fists is so many hits.

Generally the WS gear of someone /THF (if MNKs even do that anymore... I dunno) is STR and some attack because you're pretty much guaranteed to land your hit, but Asuran Fists needs to be used in conjunction with at least some degree of accuracy gear.

As for Dragon Kick specifically, though, I'm assuming the best gear setup would be stacking STR and some VIT in slots in which you can't necessarily get more STR. Osode would obviously be your best choice because it appeals to both modifiers. I'm positive Osode would be a stronger body piece than some attack piece, like Shura Togi, because of that reason.

But then again, I'm no MNK. *Shrug*

Kabuto would be good, probably, too, since MNK doesn't get N.Head.

Maybe a MNK here can post their Dragon Kick WS gear for reference.

[Jeryhn]

You really can't compare them in the same fashion because Asuran Fists is so many hits.

Generally the WS gear of someone /THF (if MNKs even do that anymore... I dunno) is STR and some attack because you're pretty much guaranteed to land your hit, but Asuran Fists needs to be used in conjunction with at least some degree of accuracy gear.

As for Dragon Kick specifically, though, I'm assuming the best gear setup would be stacking STR and some VIT in slots in which you can't necessarily get more STR. Osode would obviously be your best choice because it appeals to both modifiers. I'm positive Osode would be a stronger body piece than some attack piece, like Shura Togi, because of that reason.

But then again, I'm no MNK. *Shrug*

Kabuto would be good, probably, too, since MNK doesn't get N.Head.

Maybe a MNK here can post their Dragon Kick WS gear for reference.

Monks use Dragon Kick outside of trying to unlock their Knuckles of Trials?

[Tovaud]

You really can't compare them in the same fashion because Asuran Fists is so many hits.

Generally the WS gear of someone /THF (if MNKs even do that anymore... I dunno) is STR and some attack because you're pretty much guaranteed to land your hit, but Asuran Fists needs to be used in conjunction with at least some degree of accuracy gear.

As for Dragon Kick specifically, though, I'm assuming the best gear setup would be stacking STR and some VIT in slots in which you can't necessarily get more STR. Osode would obviously be your best choice because it appeals to both modifiers. I'm positive Osode would be a stronger body piece than some attack piece, like Shura Togi, because of that reason.

But then again, I'm no MNK. *Shrug*

Kabuto would be good, probably, too, since MNK doesn't get N.Head.

Maybe a MNK here can post their Dragon Kick WS gear for reference.

Monks use Dragon Kick outside of trying to unlock their Knuckles of Trials?

Only when we need to make Light/Fragmentation chains for some reason. Stubborn ghost in KRT or PM 8-3 when you have NIN MNK RDM WHM BLM BLM with 4 magic bursts (NIN RDM and 2x BLM) are good examples.

But yeah, mostly just Trial of Knuckles.

[aurik]

You'd probably be better off with d.head (5str 5acc) than kabuto for most DKs, because it is multihit.

[*Shinzon*]

For this your best bet is to believe it or not read the Samurai forums on Ki. The reason being this argument is brought up all the time and has been very well explained. Khalea has posted some very good and simple explinations as to why certain equipment setups are just better. And in general that board is well kept as oppose to some of the others. Not advertising it, but simply trying to point out you'd probably get a more focused response from there. Also going with Aladwar, with the use of attack food and I'm sure you'd notice a significant difference.

[Therin]

For this your best bet is to believe it or not read the Samurai forums on Ki. The reason being this argument is brought up all the time and has been very well explained. Khalea has posted some very good and simple explinations as to why certain equipment setups are just better. And in general that board is well kept as oppose to some of the others. Not advertising it, but simply trying to point out you'd probably get a more focused response from there. Also going with Aladwar, with the use of attack food and I'm sure you'd notice a significant difference.

When I saw the title of the thread, I thought the same thing. But, after actually reading it, I doubt most of the KI community would even understand it. <_<

[Aladwar]

KI Samurai Forums are relatively nice compared to the rest of the site, considering the frequent posters do our best to keep the idiots out. And, as stated above, Khalea knows his shit when it comes to damage calculations.

[archibaldcrane]

To Archibald:

Thanks, you made some excellent points and you're right, I had some glaring oversights.

I can't believe I forgot 2 STR = 1 ATK when I was doing this. I'll have to take that into consideration.

I didn't understand the pDIF cap completely, I thought it was capped at 2.4, but the way you phrase it as 2.0 +/- .4 makes sense to add in the variability. And what you're saying is, for a Critical hit, the cap is raised to 3.0, correct?

I also didn't really think about having minuets on and stuff, I'll try running through these all again with a "base" attack of 540.

What do you think are acceptable numbers for a Sea Puk, or for a Wyrm?

Are the guesses of 75 VIT and 300 Defense probably pretty good? (for Puk)

Gotta go to work now :T

The puk #s sound about right to me, I have absolutely -no- idea what Wyrm stats are. For more info about melee ratio and pDIF, take a look at

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2.../PDIFgraph.gif
From http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/PDIF

The one bad thing about this graph is that after 2.0 on the bottom, the corresponding lines should be drawn straight out to the right, instead of just stopping.

It's kind of a word-jumble. pDIF isn't a #, it's a range - it's the thing that causes randomness in FFXI. The range is set by the "level corrected melee ratio." Once the "level corrected melee ratio" hits 2.0, pDIF is at it's highest range. The range for non-crits and crits is different, as you see in the chart.

I really don't personally know if anyone regularly hits 645 attack while xping in Cadaerva Mire - it's a stretch for a SAM since I don't think they usually /war, I'm sure a NIN or WAR can get there the 60% of the time Berserk is up with meat and double minuets. Problem there of course is that Jin and Rampage are multi-hitters, so Acc becomes a much bigger deal than with the single-hitting SAM WS.

capped attack arguments are pointless, nobody cares about most damage on forest hares.

Clearly some jobs can cap attack in xp, at least some of the time. You just need the right (desired) support. Those who are wealthy/lavish enough to pop Red Curry in xp definitely have a good shot at it. If people want to report back to here with their personal stats when WSing, and their gear (with food/songs of course) we will have a much better idea of whether pDIF capping is a major factor. I'm mainly curious of

1. Samurais who have "complete" WS gear, and what their #s are.
2. NINs and WARs who have "complete" WS gear's atk #s (with proper support) with and without berserk, in their WS gear.

Strangely enough, the job that gets the earliest (and most common) exercise in capping attack on WS is...thief. Because of the way that Viper Bite is calculated (it doubles your current attack) many thieves have a "capped level-corrected melee ratio" when they are WSing from 33-59. When I took my thief up to 75 for the 2nd time, it started to become glaringly obvious that Berserk and Meat weren't helping my Viper Bites as much as /nin (for the extra dagger swing) or Squid Sushi (for the DEX/AGI) - the attack from meat or berserk for Viper Bite alone was doing nothing, as my base attack, when doubled, was capping the ratio. From that realization I started to explore the rest of capped attack scenarios. This thread furthers that cause.

[Khamsin]

The puk #s sound about right to me, I have absolutely -no- idea what Wyrm stats are.

Some assumptions I had to make to do this:
The test mob is a Sea Puk.

• Sea Puk's are on average Level 78.[/*:m:751f3]
• The Sea Puk's VIT is = 75. This is 10 more than the average Lvl. 75 player, so I figured its a good guess.[/*:m:751f3]
• The player in question is Level 75[/*:m:751f3]
• The Sea Puk's Defense is 300. At 75 on SAM with no protect, my def=250, so I figured again, a good guess.[/*:m:751f3]
• The player is using a Hagun.[/*:m:751f3]

So perhaps make the following assumptions (scaled from the Puk assumptions, from +3 levels to +20 levels):

• Tiamats are on average Level 95.[/*:m:751f3]
• Tiamat's VIT is = 132. This is 67 more than the average Lvl. 75 player, so I figured its a good guess.[/*:m:751f3]
• The player in question is Level 75[/*:m:751f3]
• Tiamat's Defense is 583. At 75 on SAM with no protect, my def=250, so I figured again, a good guess.[/*:m:751f3]
• The player is using a Hagun.[/*:m:751f3]

[archibaldcrane]

• Tiamats are on average Level 95.[/*:m:5dff8]
• Tiamat's VIT is = 132. This is 67 more than the average Lvl. 75 player, so I figured its a good guess.[/*:m:5dff8]
• The player in question is Level 75[/*:m:5dff8]
• Tiamat's Defense is 583. At 75 on SAM with no protect, my def=250, so I figured again, a good guess.[/*:m:5dff8]
• The player is using a Hagun.[/*:m:5dff8]

What I think would be more fun actually is if I could see the highest SS of Tiamat damage by a SAM, where the player knew exactly what his WDMG, ATK and STR, and TP #s were, and try to work backwards.

(Tiamat is inherently less interesting to me since you can't cap attack on him, as well as the added unknowns about notorious monsters)

[VZX]

capped attack arguments are pointless, nobody cares about most damage on forest hares.

Clearly some jobs can cap attack in xp, at least some of the time. You just need the right (desired) support. Those who are wealthy/lavish enough to pop Red Curry in xp definitely have a good shot at it. If people want to report back to here with their personal stats when WSing, and their gear (with food/songs of course) we will have a much better idea of whether pDIF capping is a major factor.

If I did my calculation correctly and the pDIF graph is completely correct, berserk, red curry, acid bolt, and dia II can make well-equiped Ranger able to hit the pDIF cap on lv79 deco weapon

Strangely enough, the job that gets the earliest (and most common) exercise in capping attack on WS is...thief. Because of the way that Viper Bite is calculated (it doubles your current attack) many thieves have a "capped level-corrected melee ratio" when they are WSing from 33-59. When I took my thief up to 75 for the 2nd time, it started to become glaringly obvious that Berserk and Meat weren't helping my Viper Bites as much as /nin (for the extra dagger swing) or Squid Sushi (for the DEX/AGI) - the attack from meat or berserk for Viper Bite alone was doing nothing, as my base attack, when doubled, was capping the ratio. From that realization I started to explore the rest of capped attack scenarios. This thread furthers that cause.

Can I get more information on bolded part? Viper Bite doubles your attack is kinda new to me.
Also... I'm not quite sure if you can really capped your attack at that level. Especially you're more likely killing ITs with mid-level buff/debuff, unlike you kill T-VT at merit PT with high-level buff and debuff

[Priran]

Those who are wealthy/lavish enough to pop Red Curry in xp definitely have a good shot at it.

That reminds me, has anyone tested Hellsteaks?

[archibaldcrane]

Can I get more information on bolded part? Viper Bite doubles your attack is kinda new to me.

Damn you wiki, for not having this info I can point to and just go "see"?

It's not something I have exhaustively tested myself. Viper bite, as you probably know, has no TP or WSC mods to it's damage. Pumping DEX/AGI etc. only helps if you stack with SA or TA. More TP only increases the poison duration. However, it clearly does more damage than a regular attack does. The description (lol SE's descriptions) says "Deals Double Damage and Poisons Target". It's ...not common knowledge, but strongly speculated upon that it achieves it's additional damage by "doubling your current attack rating" for that individual blow, similar to how Wheeling Thrust ignores a % of enemy def.

Now, if this is correct, Viper Biting a Ronfaure rabbit at 75, without SA or TA should give you the exact same damage range as a regular swing.

I'd go test that right now but I do believe Theorphan is currently sitting in Valkurm dunes on SAM14. Lemme check. Yeah, he is. I can run that test later. However, this speculation was very strongly supported in my enlightened experiences taking thief from 33-59 recently, both in my own swapping back and forth between /war and /nin, meat and sushi, and head to head (me in /war eating meat vs. a /nin and sushi thief in the same party, comparing DEX/AGI/STR/ATK #s and getting constantly outhit with 100 more attack and 6 DEX/AGI less)

edit: This thread (lolKI) has the information of my vipers in XP, pretty good convo, despite my emo at the start: http://www.killingifrit.com/forums.php?m=posts&q=131514

afk workout, be back in a while

[Khamsin]

However, it clearly does more damage than a regular attack does. The description (lol SE's descriptions) says "Deals Double Damage and Poisons Target". It's ...not common knowledge, but strongly speculated upon that it achieves it's additional damage by "doubling your current attack rating" for that individual blow, similar to how Wheeling Thrust ignores a % of enemy def.

I always thought it just did double damage (i.e. whatever damage it would have done... x2)

[archibaldcrane]

I always thought it (Viper Bite) just did double damage (i.e. whatever damage it would have done... x2)

A common misconception, due to SE's "lolWS descriptions".

[RKenshin]

Actually I'm pretty sure many well-equiped SAMs would be close to capping (? unsure what numbers are required for the cap) their attack in a standard exp PT situation. Personally I'm at about 412 attack without any buffs, then 514 with food, and in exp I'll be in the 700s with just one Minuet and Berserk.

But, regardless, all of that aside the main feature about Haub+1 that appeals to me personally is the fact it also has +15 accuracy. Missing a WS completely is a lot of damage to forfeit.

[archibaldcrane]

Actually I'm pretty sure many well-equiped SAMs would be close to capping (? unsure what numbers are required for the cap) their attack in a standard exp PT situation. Personally I'm at about 412 attack without any buffs, then 514 with food, and in exp I'll be in the 700s with just one Minuet and Berserk.

But, regardless, all of that aside the main feature about Haub+1 that appeals to me personally is the fact it also has +15 accuracy. Missing a WS completely is a lot of damage to forfeit.

If we're assuming a 300 def mob, then to cap attack on a level 78 enemy requires 645 attack. Harder mobs like trolls will require somewhat more. Sounds like for Mire mobs and Puks, accuracy aside, Byrnie will be beaten by most other body pieces for a pimp SAM like yourself.

We can get even closer to proper mob DEF #s (for non-NMs) using VZX's /check guide:

Defense Information
Let AttackDefense Ratio = Your attack / monster defense.

/check will display the ratio without taking into account Level Correction function
If AttackDefenseRatio < 1.00 → High Defense
If AttackDefenseRatio > 1.25 → Low Defense

Basically, pick a monster. Now add attack to your setup until it stops checking high defense. At that single point of attack, when added, it stops checking high defense, that is the monster's defense. You've achieved a 1/1 atk/def ratio at that point.

Then to cap your attack, take that defense #, and solve this equation for X:

2.0 = (X/mobdef) - ((moblevel - playerlevel) * .05)

If the mob is EM or lower, the equation is just:

2.0 = (X/mobdef)

[Krandor]

Those who are wealthy/lavish enough to pop Red Curry in xp definitely have a good shot at it.

That reminds me, has anyone tested Hellsteaks?

Basically a 3 hour Sis Kebabi with Dragon Killer