WHM Melee random crap

[Eldelphia]

I want the earring

[RyaWHM]

I want the earring :)

As long as you don't use KC, the mantle is okay (even with OA4 club, DA+1% is avg ~0.5% TP boost) -- I was just worried about Izzy 'cause he said "Odin items" (plural)

Yeah the earring is delicious! :D

[whackwhackwhm]

I hope you don't want the cape...! I mean, it's better than bellicose, but Resilient is waaaaay better. Zelus is /megadrool though!

--For TP:
The DA doesn't really help you w/KC, but might increase damage slightly.
--For Hexa:
Hexa will get a very small DA benefit, maybe Dmg+15% @ 1% of the time (so +0.15% dmg).
Potentia should outperform Aesir if you're below fSTR cap...
Resilient should outperform Aesir if it has 9+ attack (Att+1 > DA+1 for hexa!)
--For Rand:
Rand should get more of a DA benefit, maybe Dmg+90% @ 1% of the time (so +0.9% dmg).

I wish we MeleeWHM's were all on the same server, so we could killage Riko together...

is there any job that can solo Riko yet? That resilient mantle with mega lottery jackpot type augment is really nice... BTW for some reason your sig is such a hoot.

[RyaWHM]

is there any job that can solo Riko yet?

Yes, supposedly BST can solo with Nursery Nananabananadingdong, whatever the SuperSheep is called. I don't know any details really, other than that it is possible.

[whackwhackwhm]

Yes, supposedly BST can solo with Nursery Nananabananadingdong, whatever the SuperSheep is called. I don't know any details really, other than that it is possible.

BST^^. I can play that job... Time to roll my luck on them mantle ...

[dannyl]

apparently blu can solo Riko:
http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/21...-mage-soloing/
some video below.

On a different subject, i forget what was discussed about which path was better: the +10% DMGWS club or the +100 TP club, my fork in the road is near

[RyaWHM]

+10% DMGWS club or the +100 TP club

+10% should do better for Hexa, but +100 will do better for Boon/Dagan :)

[Fredjan]

Finally got the lv90 Mjollnir myself. =D

About the Odin items, yeah, Aesir Mantle isn't bad (I use one, but then again, I'm KC-less, so it doesn't have the ability to potentially hurt my TP gain) and the earring rocks.

At the moment I currently offhand Molva Maul, because I haven't had much time to really go for a OAT/OA2-4x/DA+ offhand magian club. The choice is probably obvious (2-4x for TP gain), but I'm just wondering what you other relic WHMs think between the two before I really get into it. Obviously it'll be moot if I ever see a Kraken Club, but hey.

[RyaWHM]

Finally got the lv90 Mjollnir myself. =D

KILLAGE!!!! >:D
killgratulations!

I'm just wondering what you other relic WHMs think between the two

If you're asking Molva vs. 2-4:

I would definitely use 2-4 over Molva, especially since the 99 version could easily get to 2-5+. The current one supposedly averages ~2 swings, and two swings @D33 will give more damage than one swing @D65

Your 7th hexa swing would only drop by maybe 20% (so ~2.8% less hexa dmg?) -- but then you factor in the ~50% more WS's and the happyhappy begins! :D

[Fredjan]

I was actually referring to OAT/OA2-4x/DA out of those 3, forgot to edit previous post. But I figured OA2-4x would win anyway.

[Atoreis]

KILLAGE!!!! >:D
killgratulations!


If you're asking Molva vs. 2-4:

I would definitely use 2-4 over Molva, especially since the 99 version could easily get to 2-5+. The current one supposedly averages ~2 swings, and two swings @D33 will give more damage than one swing @D65

Your 7th hexa swing would only drop by maybe 20% (so ~2.8% less hexa dmg?) -- but then you factor in the ~50% more WS's and the happyhappy begins! :D

There is no evidence that sub hand has any impact on WS damage.

I hope you don't want the cape...! I mean, it's better than bellicose, but Resilient is waaaaay better. Zelus is /megadrool though!

--For TP:
The DA doesn't really help you w/KC, but might increase damage slightly.
--For Hexa:
Hexa will get a very small DA benefit, maybe Dmg+15% @ 1% of the time (so +0.15% dmg).
Potentia should outperform Aesir if you're below fSTR cap...
Resilient should outperform Aesir if it has 9+ attack (Att+1 > DA+1 for hexa!)
--For Rand:
Rand should get more of a DA benefit, maybe Dmg+90% @ 1% of the time (so +0.9% dmg).

I wish we MeleeWHM's were all on the same server, so we could killage Riko together...

There is no reason to guess those numbers. They are easy to calc. da+1% on Hexa is 0.169% (not including DA diminishing returns but its pretty low on whm/nin) and 0.33% on Rand. Especially Rand guess was pretty bad it's nowhere near +90% on DA lol. DA is fTP +1 and Rand base is 2.75 and 2.95 with belt+gorget so 3.95 on DA. 3.95/2.95 = ~1.33 so 33% increase.

[RyaWHM]

EDIT: I'm gonna do the wait-and-see on this one ... seems very wrong to me >_> ... esp. the fTP part...

[Atoreis]

EDIT: I'm gonna do the wait-and-see on this one ... seems very wrong to me >_> ... esp. the fTP part...

Melee WHMs are really distrustful

Actually, you are right, I am sorry I forgot you dual wielding (which is +1fTP from sub and chance for 2x DA on Rand) in this case:

W/o diminishing returns:
Hexa - 0.142% from 1% DA ( 7 to 8 fTP and 7 to 8 hits so can't double attack twice on dual wielded Hexa. +14.2% damage if you DA)
Rand - 0.258% from 1% DA ( 1% chance for 3.95 fTP to 4.95 fTP and 0.01% for 3.95fTP to 5.95fTP. +25.3% damage on DA and +50.6% on double DA)

[Mercilessturtle]

All of the oa2-4 weapons are pretty bad. Their damage is just too low for the 2-4 to make up the difference. For DDing, the DA club will beat oa2-4 easily. Inside abyssea assuming you are fstr capped, you gain 22% damage per attack round using DA over 2-4. And that is not factoring in triple damage procs on the relic which of course favor DA. Outside where your fstr is crappy, it is like 30%. Using the 2-4 only shaves off like 13% rounds/ws, so it loses even without factoring in the DA increasing hexa damage. If you don't care about damage and are just spamming dagan for mp, then 2-4 is better since it is just a question of which one WS more often.

[Izzy]

I think you're severely underestimating how much WHM DPS sucks outside of weapon skilling.

[Atoreis]

I think you're severely underestimating how much WHM DPS sucks outside of weapon skilling.

I think you haven't read your own thread.

From one of the Rya tests (one page ago)...

The above numbers could be roughly doubled to find the marginal increase to melee or dot (because the ratio was almost 1:1, it was 51.62% melee, 48.38% ws).

... and that is with KC from what I understood so it will be even more toward melee with every other sub option for WHM.

[RyaWHM]

The last few posts in this thread are straight from the twilight zone!

fTP:
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
Seriously those fTP numbers are, I'm 99% sure, waywrong.

OA4:
It will outdamage via WS, by WSing ~50% more often.
It will outdamage via DOT, by hitting ~2x as often (for more than half DMG).

Our DOT:
Seriously Izzy? lol
(thanks for quoting me though Atoreis)




(edit) *NOTE: My OA4 claim is for offhand... I dunno if it makes sense for single-wielding (mainhand only).

[Atoreis]

The last few posts in this thread are straight from the twilight zone!

If mathematic comes from there then yeah

fTP:
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
Seriously those fTP numbers are, I'm 99% sure, waywrong.

What exactly?
I will make it simple for you and divide it into parts:
1. Haxa fTP on first hit is 1.0 every next hit on multihit WS has fTP 1.0 so whole Hexa has fTP 6.0
2. Dual wield gives additional hit on WS which also has fTP 1.0 so dual wielded Hexa has fTP 7.0
3. Rand base fTP is 2.75 and dual wielded 3.75 and with gorget and belt 3.95
4. DA on WS gives additional hit with fTP 1.0 and it is possible that DA can happen 2 times on multihit WS or 1hit WS if dual wielded (DA on every hand)
5. No evidence of sub weapon having any effect on WS damage
6. Dual wielded Hexa can't DA twice because the limit of hits for one melee round and WS is 8.

OA4:
It will outdamage via WS, by WSing ~50% more often.
It will outdamage via DOT, by hitting ~2x as often (for more than half DMG).

You are a little wrong here because you ignoring 15% DA from brutal and DA-club.
From what I know 2-4 has 40%/30%/20%/10% for 1/2/3/4 hits.
fSTR outside is probably close to 0 on something around EM.

With 2-4 and 5% da you will avarage:
5% DA
0.95*0.4 1hit
0.95*0.3 OATwice
0.95*0.2 OAThrice
0.95*0.1 OAFour
average of 1.905 for 2-4 and 1.05 for Relic overall 1.955

1.905 * 33 = 62.8
1.05 * 81 = 85
avg 147.8

DA10% would be 1.15 for main and sub overall 1.3

1.15 * 70 = 80.5
1.15 * 81 = 93.1
avg 173.6


TP gain from 2-4 is 50% higher but melee damage is 17% higher on DAclub.

I have no idea what is melee vs WS ratio for those weapon :/
I will kinda guess that

2-4 will be:
13/1.955 ~7rounds
7*147.8= 1034

DA will be:
13/1.3=10 (which also btw shows that because of how the rounds work real TP gain improvements from DA to 2-4 would be 42% not 50%)
10*173.6=1736

(this gonna be more guessing)
Hexa 2-4: (81+40+4)*7.05=881
Hexa DA: (81+40+4)*7.15=893

So ratio should be around:
2-4 melee 54% WS 46%
DA melee 67% WS 33%

Now I completely forgot how to make dps from this hmmm I think it would be:
1884*60/(7x453+120)=34.34 for 2-4
2596*60/(10x453+120)=33.49 for DA

So yeah they are pretty close if I made this right.

All this is probably irrelevant because DA is rather a candidate for main hand if you missing a relic or empyrean. Im to tired to make a math but I wouldn't be surprised if best sub for relic and empyrean and DA would be STR/att Hoeroa (well beside KC maybe)

Our DOT:
Seriously Izzy? lol
(thanks for quoting me though Atoreis)

You're welcome.

[RyaWHM]

What exactly?
I will make it simple for you and divide it into parts:
1. Haxa fTP on first hit is 1.0 every next hit on multihit WS has fTP 1.0 so whole Hexa has fTP 6.0
2. Dual wield gives additional hit on WS which also has fTP 1.0 so dual wielded Hexa has fTP 7.0
3. Rand base fTP is 2.75 and dual wielded 3.75 and with gorget and belt 3.95
4. DA on WS gives additional hit with fTP 1.0 and it is possible that DA can happen 2 times on multihit WS or 1hit WS if dual wielded (DA on every hand)
5. No evidence of sub weapon having any effect on WS damage
6. Dual wielded Hexa can't DA twice because the limit of hits for one melee round and WS is 8.

fTP is the anchors (multipliers) for 1st hit of WS... I've just never heard that term used that way before (?)

You don't just multiply by 6, it's actually 6 individual swings calculated out (cause you can miss with one swing, hit with another). You can figure out what different hits are like because they give different TP returns. This is how you can tell the offhand from the mainhand, and the DA from either of them. On a single-hit WS, I get 6tp from Mjollnir, 6tp from Kraken, and 1tp from a DA proc.

Especially the offhand stuff, was the part that seemed totally wrong to me.

I ran out to Yhoat for a quick test on weak stuff (no DA gear):

Mjollnir / Relic Maul (MainDMG:81, SubDMG:1)
Mystic Boon ~600 damage (about 10 times)

Relic Maul / Mjollnir (MainDMG:1, SubDMG:81)
Mystic Boon ~600 damage (about 10 times)

Kraken Club / Relic Maul (MainDMG:11, SubDMG:1)
Mystic Boon ~300 damage (about 5 times)

Relic Maul / Kraken Club (MainDMG:1, SubDMG: 11)
Mystic Boon ~300 damage (about 5 times)

It was a quick test, but the results were pretty obvious...

So what gives?

[Raen Ryong]

If every hit of a given weaponskill has equal hitrate, you can say that each hit is identical with the exception of the first, which has a unique fTP value. Since fTP is just a multiplier, you can say that subsequent hits to the first have a fTP of 1.0 (since any number multiplied by 1 is 1) - therefore you can process a "total fTP" figure for the weaponskill in question to analyze how gorget/belt affects weaponskill damage compared to other stats. This figure can then be modified by factors such as multiattacks.

The reason you can do this lies simply in the fact that the hits gain equally from any stat gain with the exception of THF main SA and TA. All WS hits share the same WSC/fSTR values. Pdif may vary but this is a multiplicative factor and therefore is independent of additive factors for the most part; if certain hits have more accuracy than others this can throw things off somewhat (lowering the average fTP).

Interestingly, your test above seems to indicate that the offhand hit in Mystic Boon uses offhand weapon DMG (or alternatively, that your weaponskill D is total D... but I don't think so). Since MB is 1.0 fTP at 100% TP and the offhand hit is also a "1.0 fTP", this would make the two mainhand/offhand setups indistinguishable, as above.