WHM Melee random crap

[Atoreis]

Yeah Raen just explained to you how it works now it's my turn to say:

Since "~" implies average then your test is pretty much worth nothing.
To test if hit from dual wield actually use damage from sub weapon you should:
equip Mjollnir in main and Relic maul in sub and lower you str as much as possible, then go outside one of the starting towns and do Rand till you miss first hit (damage will be much lower) then calculate the damage from this sub hit.

If damage will be based on sub weapon (relic maul in this case) the damage will be:

((MND+STR)*0.4*0.85+1+32)*1*1.58-2.52 so around 143 to 229 naked

If sub weapon base damage wont be counted and mjollnir will instead it will be
((MND+STR)*0.4*0.85+81+32)*1*1.58-2.52 so around 270 to 430 naked

EDIT: Ok I was a little wrong Your test is pretty solid and it is a good start. Especially the part relic/kc vs relic/mjollnir difference. On the other hand factoring this in KC and 2-4 lowers you WS vs DA club or STR club.

[Mercilessturtle]

Being obnoxious is not an argument, all the comic sans rainbows in the world won't contradict math. Art knows what ftp is, it is just a multiplier. Every additional hit has a 1 ftp, this is not some kind of controversial claim. Oa2-4 does not swing twice as often, nor does it ws 50% more.

Inside abyssea (assuming AoA and brutal for multihit, and that your fstr is 11 so it doesn't hurt the oa4 club):
Mjollnir + DA: 92/81 base D
1.4275 swings/hand
260.091 damage/round
18.272 TP/round

Mjollnir + shitclub: 92/44 base D
1.3425 main swings
1.746 offhand swings
212.685 damage/round
19.766 TP/round

Outside abyssea (just brutal for multi-hit, assuming 0 fstr):
Mjollnir + DA: 81/70 base D
1.15 swings/hand
182.965 damage/round
14.72 TP/round

Mjollnir + shitclub: 81/33 base D
1.05 main swings
1.524 offhand swings
143.847 damage/round
16.474 TP/round

There is no way a 12% gain in tp is going to beat out a 27% gain in TP phase damage. Especially not when you consider you gain ~2.8% WS damage from the DA assuming only main+offhand can DA. Oa2-4 weapons are only good if you do not care about damage, just tp gain.

[Nemesio]

Assuming I have nothign better to do with all my Augmentable Add-On gear, any suggestions for strictly WHM DD?

[Atoreis]

Being obnoxious is not an argument, all the comic sans rainbows in the world won't contradict math. Art knows what ftp is, it is just a multiplier. Every additional hit has a 1 ftp, this is not some kind of controversial claim. Oa2-4 does not swing twice as often, nor does it ws 50% more.

Inside abyssea (assuming AoA and brutal for multihit, and that your fstr is 11 so it doesn't hurt the oa4 club):
Mjollnir + DA: 92/81 base D
1.4275 swings/hand
260.091 damage/round
18.272 TP/round

Mjollnir + shitclub: 92/44 base D
1.3425 main swings
1.746 offhand swings
212.685 damage/round
19.766 TP/round

Outside abyssea (just brutal for multi-hit, assuming 0 fstr):
Mjollnir + DA: 81/70 base D
1.15 swings/hand
182.965 damage/round
14.72 TP/round

Mjollnir + shitclub: 81/33 base D
1.05 main swings
1.524 offhand swings
143.847 damage/round
16.474 TP/round

There is no way a 12% gain in tp is going to beat out a 27% gain in TP phase damage. Especially not when you consider you gain ~2.8% WS damage from the DA assuming only main+offhand can DA. Oa2-4 weapons are only good if you do not care about damage, just tp gain.

How you figured out 1.524 for 2-4 club outside abyssea? I had 1.955 in my calculation. Isn't Ratio 40%/30%/20%/10% for 1/2/3/4 hits?

[Mercilessturtle]

I used the numbers linked to in the math section: twofour = [ (0.125, 4), (0.15, 3), (0.25, 2) ]

[Atoreis]

I used the numbers linked to in the math section: twofour = [ (0.125, 4), (0.15, 3), (0.25, 2) ]

And from this you figured out 1.524?

0.125*4+0.15*3+0.25*2+0.475*1= 1.925 base and 1.928 with Brutal

[RyaWHM]

Being obnoxious is not an argument, all the comic sans rainbows in the world won't contradict math. Art knows what ftp is, it is just a multiplier. Every additional hit has a 1 ftp, this is not some kind of controversial claim.

Actually it kinda was a funny claim (how he put it) -- I thought we determined offhand DMG does matter, prior to your post... which is what I took issue with so obnoxiously in the first place :P

The whole "fTP" thing was just a misunderstanding, his math made sense except for the offhand being a plain old "+1" added on...

The only reason I said OA4 should out-dot DA is because I've been doing 95% crit in Abyssea, and KC (dmg11) has been doing ~45% of my dot, Mjo (dmg81) doing ~55%. Something like KC=260/round & Mjo=325/round avg. Is it the crit that skews DMG so much? Because 81x1 vs 11x4 is not a 45/55 split... do you see what I'm saying?

And math... I love math! :) I don't even care about being right, I just wanna understand... besides, half the time I post my math with obnoxious disclaimers about how I may be mistaken! :P

If you're gonna do Mjo/DA+10, you could get as high as ~1.7 swings/round:
Mjollnir
Naboot+2 (DA+10%)
White Tathlum (STP+2)
Zelus Tiara (Haste+8%)
Almah Torque (STP+2)
Suppanomimi (DW+5%)
Brutal Earring (DA+5%, STP+1)
ACP (DW+3%, DA+2%)
Blessed +1 (Haste+6%)
Rajas Ring (STP+5)
Hoard Ring (STP+4)
Fourth Mantle (STP+2)
Ninurta's Sash (Haste+6%)
ASA (Haste+3%, DA+2%)
Blessed +1 (Haste+3%)
--Razed Ruin (crit+30% etc)
--Alpha Omega (TA+10%)
--Apocalypse (TA+15%)
--------------------
Haste 26%
Crit Rate 55%
DA 20%
TA 25%
STP +16 (t3: 18hits -> 15hits)
should be ~5 rounds to WS (or fewer)? yummy!

But is it even good? DA/TA can only add one hit to Hexa, and it doesn't help a KC-user (TA does slightly), so I automatically wrote them off for my build. Should I reconsider? Or is this a case of "KC > OA4 obviously lol" ?

[Mercilessturtle]

Art: good catch, I'll have to look and see what I messed up and re-run the numers. Rya: assuming the wiki's 5:15:25:25:15:10:3:2 is somewhere close to correct, then kclub has a *way* better hit distribution than the oa2-4 weapons, which means the attacks/round are high enough to make up for the super low damage, so it can hold up well in tp phase damage.

[RyaWHM]

Lemme ask more directly:
Does crit skew it a bunch, so that, for example,
@25% crit rate, Mjo/DA does more dot
@95% crit rate, Mjo/OA4 does more dot
?

Don't need to use those exact figures but you get what I'm asking O:)

[Atoreis]

Art: good catch, I'll have to look and see what I messed up and re-run the numers. Rya: assuming the wiki's 5:15:25:25:15:10:3:2 is somewhere close to correct, then kclub has a *way* better hit distribution than the oa2-4 weapons, which means the attacks/round are high enough to make up for the super low damage, so it can hold up well in tp phase damage.

I haven't yet seen a post that was answer for mine and I was named right. Its always Atrois, Artois, Atroeis, Art. I should be probably happy that I am called Art not like I am angry or something I am just really curious what exactly trigger this common mistake ^^

[Mercilessturtle]

No, but the fact that you need to drop AoA to get 95% crit means oa24 is hurt less by existing multi-hit. Given that AoA barely does anything for your offhand if you are using the oa24, you're probably better off with SS+RR+GH. Makes the abyssea comparison useless anyhow, since now you have to factor in different crit rates for the two options.

As for the multi-hit math, after un-derping my code (and fixing the relic proc to be 3x instead of 2x) the oa24 looks like this:
2.089 swings with brutal + AoA
1.929 swings with just brutal
227.777 damage per round
161.465 damage per round
21.961 TP/round
19.066 TP/round

So outside abyssea with just haste:
5.842 rounds in 24.376 seconds = 1100.18 damage + 812.35 hexa = 78.46 dps
4.512 rounds in 19.281 seconds = 728.53 damage + 752.6 hexa = 76.82 dps

And outside with haste and marches:
5.842 rounds in 14.866 seconds = 1100.18 damage + 812.35 hexa = 128.65 dps
4.512 rounds in 11.937 seconds = 728.53 damage + 752.6 hexa = 124.08 dps

So oa24 ends up not being that bad after all, but still a bit behind DA (outside abyssea anyhow). Inside is more work than I want to do.

[RyaWHM]

assuming the wiki's 5:15:25:25:15:10:3:2 is somewhere close to correct

Just wanted to quickly say:
Yes! My last big data set had about 3.7 swings average or so :)

So oa24 ends up not being that bad after all, but still a bit behind DA (outside abyssea anyhow). Inside is more work than I want to do.

This is strange, I assumed we were all talking about Abyssea all along...

The last few times I have tried to math something for outside, everyone was like "lol outside wtf???"

Are we now interested in outside, since the development team said definitively "no new Abyssea zones" or what?

I haven't yet seen a post that was answer for mine and I was named right.

(thanks for quoting me though Atoreis)

Does that count? :D

If every hit of a given weaponskill has equal hitrate, you can say that each hit is identical with the exception of the first, which has a unique fTP value. Since fTP is just a multiplier, you can say that subsequent hits to the first have a fTP of 1.0 (since any number multiplied by 1 is 1) - therefore you can process a "total fTP" figure for the weaponskill in question to analyze how gorget/belt affects weaponskill damage compared to other stats. This figure can then be modified by factors such as multiattacks.

The reason you can do this lies simply in the fact that the hits gain equally from any stat gain with the exception of THF main SA and TA. All WS hits share the same WSC/fSTR values. Pdif may vary but this is a multiplicative factor and therefore is independent of additive factors for the most part; if certain hits have more accuracy than others this can throw things off somewhat (lowering the average fTP).

Interestingly, your test above seems to indicate that the offhand hit in Mystic Boon uses offhand weapon DMG (or alternatively, that your weaponskill D is total D... but I don't think so). Since MB is 1.0 fTP at 100% TP and the offhand hit is also a "1.0 fTP", this would make the two mainhand/offhand setups indistinguishable, as above.

EDIT: I wanted to add this:
Thank you for posting! :D
It's just a difference of "has" vs. "adds" and he used the confusing version (adds). So my brain exploded because of WS's like Starlight, where DA obviously doesn't apply. If you "ADD" fTP +1.0, then Starlight would get more MP.

-- If you say "DA adds fTP +1.0" then Starlight = brain explosion
-- If you say "DA has fTP of 1.0" then Starlight = makes sense

But he obviously meant the latter, and it all makes sense now.

And one more thank you to "Art" & Turtle, I wish you guys were around (and bored) when I posted atma math earlier in the thread. Thank you guys! <3

[Mercilessturtle]

I did inside and outside, I just didn't post updated inside numbers since they are useless. Oa24 suffers a lot from using AoA, so you would need to compare DA with SS/RR/AoA vs oa24 with SS/RR/GH. I am too lazy to do that comparison, outside I can ignore pdif/crit since they stay the same between both setups.

[whackwhackwhm]

Finally got the lv90 Mjollnir myself. =D

Did you finish it via new Dynamis? Where do you pop Quibetel now and what pop item do you need to do it? Can you do all 5 in one sitting?

[Atoreis]

Does that count? :D

Yeah, Thx but check this out

I get you have an Almace and Ochain Atroeis...

EDIT: I wanted to add this:
Thank you for posting! :D
It's just a difference of "has" vs. "adds" and he used the confusing version (adds). So my brain exploded because of WS's like Starlight, where DA obviously doesn't apply. If you "ADD" fTP +1.0, then Starlight would get more MP.

-- If you say "DA adds fTP +1.0" then Starlight = brain explosion
-- If you say "DA has fTP of 1.0" then Starlight = makes sense

But he obviously meant the latter, and it all makes sense now.

Well, yeah my English still sux so you need to be focused when reading my posts :D

And one more thank you to "Art" & Turtle, I wish you guys were around (and bored) when I posted atma math earlier in the thread. Thank you guys! <3

Np. it was a pleasure to post and I will try to be around

[Izzy]

Did you finish it via new Dynamis? Where do you pop Quibetel now and what pop item do you need to do it? Can you do all 5 in one sitting?

I just recently did mine.

You pop Quibetel at the lake with the Orc NM's now. You need a Sadist's Fortune to pop it (drops from the lower level Hydra BLM/WHM/BRD). You can do all 5 in one sitting if you get lucky on Sadist's Fortune drops. It took me 2 runs to complete.

[Alkimi]

Finally got the lv90 Mjollnir myself. =D

Jealous! A way to go yet but picked this up tonight. At least trials aren't even slightly as bad as they used to be.

http://www.gwcdn.com/albums/images/4...0a2b004e67.jpg

[Izzy]

Nice lookin man!

[Jem]

Disclaimer: I don't actually use Haute and Gallant Feet on my PLD. It was just so me and Blaize could match for the picture >_>

Grats Alki!

[RyaWHM]

MjoKC Army +1 woohoo!!!!!
Congratulations sir!! :D