WHM Melee random crap

[Amele]

thanks to kirshy in advance for this information.

most haste is expressed as an increment of 5/512 (except for very large chunks of haste, which generally don't appear on gear.) 10% haste if it existed on one piece would be ~51/512 10% haste on two 5% pieces is 50/512 (25/512 + 25/512)

the haste cap from gear is 25% or 128/512.

"25%" printed in gear would be only 125/512 (24.4%) unless you happen to have a black belt (the only gear piece I'm aware of that was indicated as having a non-increment of 5/512 exact haste - Rune Chopper might be the other depending on whether SE was generous, but the discrepency doesn't get >=1/512 until 10% on one piece)

so for with few exceptions, you need 26% haste gear to reach the actual gear haste cap, but the final piece is 'only' worth about .6% over "25%" haste (which is really 24.4% haste).


as for gear questions:

I have gear setups for Hexa Strike already. The WS gear I posted was for Randgrith, which is single hit. Do you have any suggestions for that? I'm guessing I won't need heavy accuracy for that.

so randgrith wins outside? I know you had mentioned a couple times inside dynamis that hexa seemed to perform better.

accuracy is still a big deal, since (let's say) 100 100 100 0 0 (60% accuracy) vs. 100 100 100 100 0 (80% accuracy) the 20% boost to accuracy is the equivalent of a 33% boost in damage. (obviously at "real" accuracy numbers this is less exaggerated. but at 90% accuracy, +10 acc is worth about 5.5% more damage, which is pretty significant.) if you're pegged at 92-94% with sushi or something (since I doubt you can eat meat in exp on whm ) I'd rethink the accuracy suggestions, but I would be surprised if you were during weaponskill.

with randgrith I'd probably lean toward the +1 hat, although if you don't already have one, I don't think it'll be significantly better for you (likely around 3damage difference between it and sallet, with slightly less accuracy.)

body? I'd still stick with the Jupon (if you average say, 500 damage randgriths, 1% more accuracy is the equivalent of a 5damage boost to your per ws average. and +6 mnd isn't going to add +3.5% to the randgrith damage) but the jubbah would be much closer so I think you'd be justified in switching to it for ws.

feet: again, I'd consider hydra gaiters if they're accessible, otherwise you've made the right choices.

[Izzy]

thanks to kirshy in advance for this information.

most haste is expressed as an increment of 5/512 (except for very large chunks of haste, which generally don't appear on gear.) 10% haste if it existed on one piece would be ~51/512 10% haste on two 5% pieces is 50/512 (25/512 + 25/512)

the haste cap from gear is 25% or 128/512.

"25%" printed in gear would be only 125/512 (24.4%) unless you happen to have a black belt (the only gear piece I'm aware of that was indicated as having a non-increment of 5/512 exact haste - Rune Chopper might be the other depending on whether SE was generous, but the discrepency doesn't get >=1/512 until 10% on one piece)

so for with few exceptions, you need 26% haste gear to reach the actual gear haste cap, but the final piece is 'only' worth about .6% over "25%" haste (which is really 24.4% haste).


as for gear questions:

I have gear setups for Hexa Strike already. The WS gear I posted was for Randgrith, which is single hit. Do you have any suggestions for that? I'm guessing I won't need heavy accuracy for that.

so randgrith wins outside? I know you had mentioned a couple times inside dynamis that hexa seemed to perform better.

accuracy is still a big deal, since (let's say) 100 100 100 0 0 (60% accuracy) vs. 100 100 100 100 0 (80% accuracy) the 20% boost to accuracy is the equivalent of a 33% boost in damage. (obviously at "real" accuracy numbers this is less exaggerated. but at 90% accuracy, +10 acc is worth about 5.5% more damage, which is pretty significant.) if you're pegged at 92-94% with sushi or something (since I doubt you can eat meat in exp on whm ) I'd rethink the accuracy suggestions, but I would be surprised if you were during weaponskill.

with randgrith I'd probably lean toward the +1 hat, although if you don't already have one, I don't think it'll be significantly better for you (likely around 3damage difference between it and sallet, with slightly less accuracy.)

body? I'd still stick with the Jupon (if you average say, 500 damage randgriths, 1% more accuracy is the equivalent of a 5damage boost to your per ws average. and +6 mnd isn't going to add +3.5% to the randgrith damage) but the jubbah would be much closer so I think you'd be justified in switching to it for ws.

feet: again, I'd consider hydra gaiters if they're accessible, otherwise you've made the right choices.

Hexa Strike does do more damage, but you have to set it up with Randgrith. That's why I wanted to get the most damage out of Randgrith as well. Basically when you merit you go in a "TP > Randgrith > TP > Hexa Strike > TP > Randgrith > TP > Hexa Strike" pattern. This keeps your accuracy WAY up, plus it lowers the mobs evasion so you miss Hexa swings far less often. If you miss more than one swing on a Hexa Strike, Randgrith almost always does more damage.

If SE buffs relic WS like they said they would, then I'd assume Randgrith would out perform Hexa Strike.

[Max™]

Ok, lets look at the mods for Randgrith.

40% Str 40% Mnd

Bringing up my rant from the WTF Player thread about Jet legs for Apoc Drks.

Str counts for fStr (basically a 30% WS mod to simplify it), Attack, and if applicable, WS mod.

Generally for a pure mod to outdo Str, you need to get 3 times as much of it.

If you can put 3 Str somewhere, you'll need 9 or 10 Mnd to do better than the Str would.

This is my logic behind using Genbu's Kabuto until I get a Uni Cap +1 (yeah, right) Askar Zuch (more likely) or Nhead (don't camp HNM's, go go gadget Einherjar?) because 15 Vit > 4 Str from Abtal Turban or Uni Cap NQ.

The Acc on Uni Cap is nice, and worth looking at for /Sam WSes which aren't with SA, but I really don't have too many issues with missing, go go gorget!

Speaking of which, if Rand is a single hit WS, which Gorget is appropriate for it, and do you have/use it for Rand?

Hexa will undoubtedly benefit from the PCC/Torque more, but Rand should get a nice little bump from the corresponding Gorget.

Regarding the head piece, 3 Str > 7 Mnd
Body, 12 Mnd > 2 Str... comes down to Acc, which shouldn't be bad with Gorget/etc
Back is good, Feet I'd go with Taru RSE2, Creek M Clomps, 4 Str > 10 Mnd, hands AF +1 ftmfw.

Rings is a little confusing, Aqua look nice, 2 Str 5 Mnd, but you can get 5 Str with Triumph rings, without sacrificing Mnd, like Flame rings do.

Brutal on the left ear, Triumph on the right, and you're set I think.

[Kriz]

Might as well cap out haste at 26%, you are gonna have 25% with all +1s and Nashira, might as well make it 26 with Goliard.

At this time, WoTG has nothing that really excels for whm DD, this I hope soon changes.

Body, Marduk I bet will be nice if you can afford the acc trade off. Otherwise TB+1 > BB+1 imo.

I'm pretty sure I bring this up in this thread, it's obvious you have to get Maat's Cap. Get to it!

[Amele]

Ok, lets look at the mods for Randgrith.

40% Str 40% Mnd

Bringing up my rant from the WTF Player thread about Jet legs for Apoc Drks.

Str counts for fStr (basically a 30% WS mod to simplify it), Attack, and if applicable, WS mod.

Generally for a pure mod to outdo Str, you need to get 3 times as much of it.

If you can put 3 Str somewhere, you'll need 9 or 10 Mnd to do better than the Str would.

This is my logic behind using Genbu's Kabuto until I get a Uni Cap +1 (yeah, right) Askar Zuch (more likely) or Nhead (don't camp HNM's, go go gadget Einherjar?) because 15 Vit > 4 Str from Abtal Turban or Uni Cap NQ.

The Acc on Uni Cap is nice, and worth looking at for /Sam WSes which aren't with SA, but I really don't have too many issues with missing, go go gorget!

Speaking of which, if Rand is a single hit WS, which Gorget is appropriate for it, and do you have/use it for Rand?

Hexa will undoubtedly benefit from the PCC/Torque more, but Rand should get a nice little bump from the corresponding Gorget.

Regarding the head piece, 3 Str > 7 Mnd
Body, 12 Mnd > 2 Str... comes down to Acc, which shouldn't be bad with Gorget/etc
Back is good, Feet I'd go with Taru RSE2, Creek M Clomps, 4 Str > 10 Mnd, hands AF +1 ftmfw.

Rings is a little confusing, Aqua look nice, 2 Str 5 Mnd, but you can get 5 Str with Triumph rings, without sacrificing Mnd, like Flame rings do.

Brutal on the left ear, Triumph on the right, and you're set I think.

max: run the numbers on 3str vs. 7mnd: 25% str + 40% str = 1.95 str (95% of the time you'll have +2)
7 mnd * 40% = 2.8 (80% of the time you'll get +3 and the rest of the time you'll get +2) so from a pure damage standpoint it's not even close. (basically, healers+1 is -always- better regardless of your strength) the 4dex for accuracy has some consideration too, but for a single hit weaponskill it would really come down to where your accuracy was already *shrugs*.

(1.5 attack (3 str) is negligible (at merit levels, it'll adjust your pdif about (0.005) which is arguably below the truncation point. )

[Izzy]

Speaking of which, if Rand is a single hit WS, which Gorget is appropriate for it, and do you have/use it for Rand?

It's breeze/thunder. Yea I have and use it.

[Izzy]

Now I'm confused. There's two sets of calculations there. Which is right Q_Q?

[aurik]

Your attack is really low As a comparison, most dedicated melees reach for 400 before buffs/food/songs. The heavier DDs exceed this mark easily.

You may find that att gear outperforms secondary mod gear, but I'm just not sure what's available for whm.

[Izzy]

Your attack is really low As a comparison, most dedicated melees reach for 400 before buffs/food/songs. The heavier DDs exceed this mark easily.

You may find that att gear outperforms secondary mod gear, but I'm just not sure what's available for whm.

Next to none . See: Bellicose Mantle lol

[Amele]

Now I'm confused. There's two sets of calculations there. Which is right Q_Q?

at the risk of coming across arrogant. mine (although I bet you mean both of mine as two sets of calculations) you remember the post I made on like page 2 or 3? I stand by that one.

[Zarath]

Now I'm confused. There's two sets of calculations there. Which is right Q_Q?

at the risk of coming across arrogant. mine (although I bet you mean both of mine as two sets of calculations) you remember the post I made on like page 2 or 3? I stand by that one.

After reading it, I'd agree too.

But as Aurik said, +atk will probably outperform WS DMG mods, especially considering that your a TT WHM, so there's a lot of potential on that side of the equation, however I do realize the atk+ or lack there of problem with WHM ><;.

Pretty much ur in the same boat as us CORs though with Rand.

Try losing some r acc pieces, since the problem with sushi is u can't get high enough acc to rely using meat where is with sushi you have too much acc.

Just think of it this way right now you have a acc of 75% with sushi you'll go as high as 110% (if acc didn't cap) so instead switch out some STR, AGI and r atk gear instead in a few slots such as Sniper Ring +1 could be changed to Rajas, Dusk trousers could be changed to pah pants, vison earring could be changed to triumph earrings, even both of them can.

Essentially what you want is a high pDif value and a high Base Damage value, since of our shitty STR we should bulk up on STR when we can on certain pieces to get a good fSTR out of our guns (chances we'll never ever get to the cap of this, additionally since it has a lower cap that can impact negatively to our overall WS damage we want to get a good value for it), second of all we want a high r atk value so that we can get a high, to near cap pDif value (since this is capped at a certain point, chances are we won't get to that cap though however it's a trade off of either Base Damage getting hit or pDif value getting hit if we concentrate on only one of them)

The only slots I have for AGI are slots where is I don't have a STR item on hand (or where is my STR item is on borrow) or it's part of the piece itself. Since we have a shitty overall fSTR and pDif normally I try to maximize the effects of both though gear since acc will be handled by the sushi (since without a good pDif or fSTR the WSC really is meaningless)

ONLY, especially if you're merited like me, use r acc in your WS slots if there's absolutely no other alternatives on hand. Most good COR gear for WS has r acc tacked on with it's good stats so generally it's not a huge issue. I have about 95% hit rate on slugs @ 100% at close range so it's good enough for me.

Except change fSTR with WSC since fSTR is calced diff with ranged atks (approx 50% increase more or less instead of ur 25%)

And with that being said, why ATK+ is better if you can get a lot of it:

pDif, it has a direct collation with WS damage (Damage = Base Damage * pDIF) you more bang for your buck than improving Base Damage, however since it does have a cap it's easier to maximize this side of the equation with buffs and what not. Since our rank is B without merits, we have a large potential to improve pDif (essentially, it's reallllly hard for us to cap it in any circumstance) and since we have a high base damage already set, pDif improvements, even .1 of one, equates to a big improvement in damage.

[Izzy]

So, maybe instead of trying to pile on the STR, I should be using attack instead? For example, the +2 STR on the Ryl. Knight Mantle < +6 Attack on the bellicose mantle. The person I normally do all this shit with kinda quit FFXI so now I'm stuck trying to figure this out alone lol.

[Zarath]

This is with the assumption with 300 def mob:

WS Base Damage = floor(( Weapon Base Damage + (Ammo Damage) + fSTR(2) + WSC ) * fTP)
WS Damage = WS Base Damage * pDIF

pDif of 6atk
6/300 = 0.02 pDif Value

2 STR is
~.003 pDif value
(2*.25 + 2*.40) = 1.3 DMG

Additional Varibles
2.75 fTP

For B. Mantle
((57 * 2.75) = 156.75
157 * 1.02 = 160.14

For RK Mantle:
((57 + 1.3) * 2.75) = 160.3
160 * 1.003 = 160.48

Answer, RK mantle by a very very very slim margin (.34 difference @ 1.00 pDif). It seems with both fTP and WSC mods as well as a relatively low base DMG on the club itself, might make stat increasings, namely STR, more worthwhile.

Though, this is one of the few times I've actually sat down and calculated this junk so I'm gonna let some1 check my work lol. It's pretty easy a COR to figure what's better so yea...

[Izzy]

Answer, RK mantle by a very very very slim margin (.34 difference @ 1.00 pDif). It seems with both fTP and WSC mods as well as a relatively low base DMG on the club itself, might make stat increasings, namely STR, more worthwhile.

The clubs base DMG is the highest 1h weapon base DMG in the game. I wouldn't exactly consider that low base DMG lol.

Maybe today while I'm doing absolutely nothing at work, I'll hammer out some calculations if I can figure all this shit out.

[Granthis]

Congrats on finishing, Izzy!

KClub, eh? I'm jealous.

I'm really interested to hear what kind of MP return procs you get on what kinds of mobs. Apart from my buddies telling me i got 22ish a time or two the first day I had the thing, I can't seem to break out of the 4-16 range, regardless of my target mob family or level. I've been on a magical subjob-leveling mystery tour outside of my events schedule, so I haven't worked much with testing lately, but casual observation shows that I'm unable to up those MP returns.

[Izzy]

Congrats on finishing, Izzy!

KClub, eh? I'm jealous.

I'm really interested to hear what kind of MP return procs you get on what kinds of mobs. Apart from my buddies telling me i got 22ish a time or two the first day I had the thing, I can't seem to break out of the 4-16 range, regardless of my target mob family or level. I've been on a magical subjob-leveling mystery tour outside of my events schedule, so I haven't worked much with testing lately, but casual observation shows that I'm unable to up those MP returns.

Yea, I generally get somewhere around 7-15 returns on MP. I didn't expect much from the MP restore so I really don't care that it's kinda crap.

I'm loving the random 2.5x damage though haah.

[Zarath]

It might be but it's small compared to my 110 DMG coffinmaker + steel bullets :D

But it looks like u need about 4-5 ATK+ for each +1STR to be more worthwhile.

[Izzy]

It might be but it's small compared to my 110 DMG coffinmaker + steel bullets :D

But it looks like u need about 4-5 ATK+ for each +1STR to be more worthwhile.

I spent all morning at work writing down every damage calc I could find to hopefully better understand wtf is going on.

I'm still fucking clueless.

[Max™]

Basically, if you have a shit load of Attack, you want Str to pump up that side of the calcs.

You don't, and you don't have a shit load of Str either, so it comes down to what is worth more for the slot.

I still think the reply calculating the WS mods vs Str itself neglected how low your base attack is.

The simplest answer would be to set up some sort of controlled test, like... go Whm/Thf to Lower delkfutts tower, and find a Gigas bst, build TP on mobs in the area to some set amount, the SA > Rand the Gigas Bat with the Healer's +1, the V Sallet, and nothing at all on your head.

Do that and after a few times you should start to notice a trend between the three of them.

Can also compare the damage of the Prudence vs Gorget like that, and put on a neutral piece too.

Mind this will be in a situation where your attack would be effectively capped, because of how puss-weak the Bst pet is.

Since you won't be able to cap that, any mods where you can pump the base damage of the WS, AND your attack would be desireable, thus: Str in as large a quantity as you can get, ftw.

This would be much easier if Healers +1 head had like 5 Str and 5 Mnd.



Your attack checks against the targets defense. (pDif)
Your str is compared against the targets vit. (fStr)
Level Correction is applied. (can't remember the abbr. cLev I think?)
Base weapon damage is factored, and adjusted by fStr effectively.
WS mods adjust the base damage during WS, in addition to fStr.

So you wind up with a minimum and max damage bounded by your Weapon Damage, and your Str.
Then your attack vs mob defense gives the random number generator a range to work with.
Level Correction does it's cruel math, and then you see a number pop up on the screen.

Easy way to see this, hit a lvl 82 merit mob 10 times, you'll get 9 or 10 different numbers with your lower attack/str but relatively high weapon damage.

Hit a lvl 0 rarab 10 times (well, 10 different rarabs), you'll probably get 2 or 3 numbers, or less, as you're maxing out portions of the equation, and giving the random number generator less room.

[VZX]

This is what I got when I did algebraic manipulation on damage formula:
Damage Difference = [?BD/BD - (c*?att)/(d*def + c*att1)]

or in the equation form:
?BD/BD = (c*?att)/(d*def + c*att1)

?BD = Base Damage increase
BD = total Base Damage before increment
c = average slope of pDIF function
?att = attack increment
d = static offset on pDIF function
def = monster defense
att1 = total attack before increment

That formula is the answer for "how much base damage needed for certain amount of attack?"
Unfortunately, it doesn't look very nice