Light Gorget and Shadow Gorget

[LinktheDeme]

so if gravitation is primary does that mean that both earth and darkness gorgets are 10%?

[safer]

i have some numbers on a scrap paper at home that i did tests with slugshot with my light gorget.... but i do recall them being greater than 1% increase of damage (i'll edit this post when i get home)

ranged attacks are much easier to test because of extremely low varience with damage, even at various distances , on lvl 1 bunnies

gah now im starting to second guess myself.. this really sucks if i have to farm another set of organs for water gorget -_-

[Naramaska]

There's no change, damage-wise, based on whether an element is primary/secondary/terciary (sp?). I tested out Light Gorget a while back for Sidewinder and Arching Arrow. If there was a change based on primary/secondary the PDIF bonuses would not line up (AA = Fusion = Light/Fire primary by that theory, SW = Reverb1/Scission2/Transfix3)

Math and data from tests below (C&P mostly from my KI post):



Target mob: Wild Rabbit (East Ronfaure)

Equipment:
http://homepages.wmich.edu/~r3beebe/testequip.gif

Relevant values for mechanics discussion:
STR 62+18
AGI 76+15
Earthsday, 17% Waning Crescent

Ammo used for all tests were Demon Arrows. Weapon was Selene's Bow. Moon phase was constant during all tests. For all tests, equipment was identical except for the neck slot. For the tests without Light Gorget, no neck equipment was used. Distances were measured to be exactly 10m from the target within .05 units for all tests, mob was held via shadowbind. Food was not used for any tests, however, berserk was in order to be beyond-certain of capping PDIF values.



Results:
non-LG:
Sidewinder #1 - 2484
Sidewinder #2 - 2484
Sidewinder #3 - 2484
Sidewinder #4 - 2484
(notice a trend?)

Light Gorget:
Sidewinder #1 - 2527
Sidewinder #2 - 2527
Sidewinder #3 - 2527
Sidewinder #4 - 2527
(notice a much nicer trend?)

2527-2484 = 43 damage boost

Working backwards through the formulas. As a fair warning, I am not quite certain of where during the calculations the values are floored during WSC, so I chose to work backwards with the formulas to obtain it for the non-LG tests.

D = (D + fSTR2 + WSC) * fTP * PDIF

non-LG:
2484 = (106 + 32 + WSC) * 5.0 * 3.0
WSC = 27.6

LG:
2527 = (106 + 32 + 27.6) * fTP * 3.0
2527 = 165.6 * fTP * 3.0
fTP = 5.0865 = ~5.1




Arching Arrow:
non-LG:
Arching Arrow #1 - 1734
Arching Arrow #2 - 1734
Arching Arrow #3 - 1734

Light Gorget:
Arching Arrow #1 - 1785
Arching Arrow #2 - 1785
Arching Arrow #3 - 1785

1785 - 1734 = 51 Damage boost


1734 (real) = (106 + 32 + 27.6) * 3.5 * 3.0 = 1738.8 (estimated)

The estimate is off by 4.8 damage based on the formulas used for sidewinder...but this is a suprisingly accurate approximation.

1785 = (106 + 32 + 27.6) * fTP * 3.0
fTP = 3.5929 = ~3.6




Please note these tests were done before the RNG "un-nerf", but the fact that the damage was consistant shows that attack was capped throughout.

[Kirschy]

Ok I am dumb and didn't fully understand how the gorgets worked. I knew they added some .1 to the calculation, but I was under the impression it came out to be a 10% increase. I realize now after reading VZX's post where my misunderstanding was coming in. It is adding .1 to the fTP. In the case of Guillotine or Spiral hell, it is close to "1.00" ftp, so adding .1, increases the damage by 10%. Kaiten is a 3.0 modifier, so adding .1 to 3.0, is increasing it by 3%ish. Catastrophe is a 2.75 modifier so adding .1 is again is a little over 3% increase which showed in my tests. Sidewinder/Slugshot is a 5.0 modifier... so adding .1 is about 2% increase. 43 damage increase on 2484 Sidewinder is about 1.7%ish increase.

I apologize for the misinformation and misunderstanding. Apparantly gorgets do not discriminate between primary/secondary attributes, and relic WS are affected by their lv2 attribute. Thanks to the people who helped me clear that up~

[archibaldcrane]

It makes the "Love Torque" vs. "Breeze Gorget" for Shark Bite more interesting. At 100-199% TP, Breeze Gorget will add 5% to Shark Bite (2.0 fTP) 200-299, it'll add 4% (2.5 fTP), and at 300% it'll add 3.3% (3.0 fTP). Love Torque adds an effective 2.5 WDMG (because of 50% dex mod, 5 DEX) to Shark onry, and a whopping 7.5 WDMG (2.5 for SB and 5 for SA from 5 DEX) for SASB or SATASB, as well as 7 attack.

I'm going out, but I'll grind some #s later vs. our friend the level 78 300 def. xp mob to see which would be better under which circumstances.

(Evisceration and Dancing Edge are less interesting, because of lower DEX mods (30%) and much lower fTP (1.0 fixed and 1.1875 fixed respectively, making the +.1 on gorgets much more significant)

edit: I just remembered what the huge question was regarding these gorgets in the "which should thief use" debate. Does it raise fTP by .1 for all the hits of the weapon skill, or just the first hit? Very hard to prove one way or another, but could be important.

[VZX]

Please note these tests were done before the RNG "un-nerf", but the fact that the damage was consistant shows that attack was capped throughout.

I think it's because you stand on the same range everytime
your capped damage sidewinder with that setup should be 2505

It makes the "Love Torque" vs. "Breeze Gorget" for Shark Bite more interesting. At 100-199% TP, Breeze Gorget will add 5% to Shark Bite (2.0 fTP) 200-299, it'll add 4% (2.5 fTP), and at 300% it'll add 3.3% (3.0 fTP). Love Torque adds an effective 2.5 WDMG (because of 50% dex mod, 5 DEX) to Shark onry, and a whopping 7.5 WDMG (2.5 for SB and 5 for SA from 5 DEX) for SASB or SATASB, as well as 7 attack.

Shark Bite is a 2-hit WS right? that'll add another 1.0 fTP to those numbers.
and WSC level modifier makes SB 50%DEX is closer to 40% DEX for lv75 characters.

It'll be a complex testing...

slight OT: Do you guys always get 5-hit (or 6 hit if you DW) TP return from SA+DE?

[archibaldcrane]

Shark Bite is a 2-hit WS right? that'll add another 1.0 fTP to those numbers.
and WSC level modifier makes SB 50%DEX is closer to 40% DEX for lv75 characters.

It'll be a complex testing...

slight OT: Do you guys always get 5-hit (or 6 hit if you DW) TP return from SA+DE?

So, for each hit of a WS, the way the extra hits are calculated is that if landed, each additional hit after the first adds an extra 1.0 to fTP? If that's how it works (I was thinking about this...in the shower of all places, today) that makes the math even more...complicated. And you're right about the WSC modifier at 75. Good point.

As far as your question - SA or TA (unless you're Chiz) when you meet the conditions of activation, guarantees accuracy on your first hit of a multi-hit WS, as well as your offhand hit. For /nin, 2 hits (of 6 for DE or Evis, or of 3 for Shark Bite) are guaranteed, and for /war, /drk, /sam etc. only the main-hand hit is guaranteed. Do you think the off-hand hit works like the other 4 hits of a 5-hitter (just adding 1.0 to fTP)? Or do you think the offhand hit is just a normal melee swing at the given stats (ignoring WSC stuff) added to the mix?

Aaaaand...do you think that the Torque adds 0.1 to fTP for each hit of a 5-hitter, or just the first hit? I guess we're talking about the difference between, for Evisceration, 1.1 for first hit, plus 1.0X4=4 for the rest, vs. 1.1 for the first hit plus 1.1X4=4.4 for the rest. Very, very important for my "Love Torque vs. gorget" calcs.

[aurik]

There was also some speculation on my part that gorget may add 0.1 to pdif (before capping at 3.0), based on Ruke's Yuki/Kasha/Gekko comparison on Steelshells a while back.

[VZX]

So, for each hit of a WS, the way the extra hits are calculated is that if landed, each additional hit after the first adds an extra 1.0 to fTP? If that's how it works (I was thinking about this...in the shower of all places, today) that makes the math even more...complicated. And you're right about the WSC modifier at 75. Good point.

well... the rule is "for every subsequent hit of WS, fTP is always 1.0".
So the first hit is:
Base * fTP_first * pDIF
and for each subsequent hit is
Base * 1.0 * pDIF
working back on distributive property, you'll get
Base * (fTP_first + #OfSubsequentHit*1.0) * pDIF

which is, for the case of SB, you'll get 3.0 if you get all 2 hits connected

As far as your question - SA or TA (unless you're Chiz) when you meet the conditions of activation, guarantees accuracy on your first hit of a multi-hit WS, as well as your offhand hit. For /nin, 2 hits (of 6 for DE or Evis, or of 3 for Shark Bite) are guaranteed, and for /war, /drk, /sam etc. only the main-hand hit is guaranteed.

I see... because I remember Keichan tested SA with non-single hit KC results all the hit is critical and hit for 100% accuracy.
http://tkeichan.livejournal.com/44367.html

Do you think the off-hand hit works like the other 4 hits of a 5-hitter (just adding 1.0 to fTP)? Or do you think the offhand hit is just a normal melee swing at the given stats (ignoring WSC stuff) added to the mix?

I'm not too sure about this...

Aaaaand...do you think that the Torque adds 0.1 to fTP for each hit of a 5-hitter, or just the first hit? I guess we're talking about the difference between, for Evisceration, 1.1 for first hit, plus 1.0X4=4 for the rest, vs. 1.1 for the first hit plus 1.1X4=4.4 for the rest. Very, very important for my "Love Torque vs. gorget" calcs.

good question. I don't know either. However, I'm leaning to the first assumption. Otherwise, you'll find quite an improvement on Asuran fist

[souleman]

Okay, 2 sources have been mentioned for finding information on gorgets. Wiki, and KoolAid.. But, they contradict eachother, so now I'm confused. I'll admit, I am a RDM, so don't really know jack when it comes to WS (I can burst a SC when I have time, but don't ask me to make one).

Anyway, I've been doing a lot more solo melee stuff and was going to get a gorget for eviseration. Wiki says Eviceration is Gravitation/Transfixion. KoolAid says it is Fragmentation/Transfixion. I was thinking about Soil Gorget because it will also work on the rare occassion that I use Savage Blade, but if Eviseration is Fragmentation, then it won't work.

Does anyone know which is correct, and if it is KoolAid, does anyone know if there is a gorget that will work for both?

[VZX]

Evisceration is Grav/Trans
If any SC chart said it has Frag, it's an old one

[NynJa]

As far as your question - SA or TA (unless you're Chiz) when you meet the conditions of activation, guarantees accuracy on your first hit of a multi-hit WS, as well as your offhand hit. For /nin, 2 hits (of 6 for DE or Evis, or of 3 for Shark Bite) are guaranteed, and for /war, /drk, /sam etc. only the main-hand hit is guaranteed.

I see... because I remember Keichan tested SA with non-single hit KC results all the hit is critical and hit for 100% accuracy.
http://tkeichan.livejournal.com/44367.html

all standard melee hits that connect under the influence of SA or TA post 60 (assuming you're not Chiz) will all have 100% accuracy. This includes any double/triple procs that may incure. Extra hits of a WS however are not granted this 100% accuracy bonus.

[LinktheDeme]

i dont wanna be stating the obvious but. . . theres things with fusion primary and transfixion secondary. . .

One would fire and light give both the SAME bonus, since transfixion is reoccuring. . . and if it had no secondary and just said fusion or gravitation would fire light work for fusion and earth dark work for gravitation equally?

[aurik]

yes.

[LinktheDeme]

yes.

Yes to both? Also in the first scenario would there be a double bonus for having light goget since its primary and secondary?

[Thitaubian]

Yes to both.
No double bonus.

[GSDragoon]

edit: I just remembered what the huge question was regarding these gorgets in the "which should thief use" debate. Does it raise fTP by .1 for all the hits of the weapon skill, or just the first hit? Very hard to prove one way or another, but could be important.

hrm, so to do this you would have to find an enemy weak enough to last say 2 hits of a WS(or any set amount), but always that amount. And at the same time, you have to have a capped pdif?

[Lordwafik]

edit: I just remembered what the huge question was regarding these gorgets in the "which should thief use" debate. Does it raise fTP by .1 for all the hits of the weapon skill, or just the first hit? Very hard to prove one way or another, but could be important.

hrm, so to do this you would have to find an enemy weak enough to last say 2 hits of a WS(or any set amount), but always that amount. And at the same time, you have to have a capped pdif?

boreal hound seems perfect for this

[GSDragoon]

edit: I just remembered what the huge question was regarding these gorgets in the "which should thief use" debate. Does it raise fTP by .1 for all the hits of the weapon skill, or just the first hit? Very hard to prove one way or another, but could be important.

hrm, so to do this you would have to find an enemy weak enough to last say 2 hits of a WS(or any set amount), but always that amount. And at the same time, you have to have a capped pdif?

boreal hound seems perfect for this

Do they have like 0 def or are they just really squishy? Sortta like Apollyn SE mobs.

[VZX]

edit: I just remembered what the huge question was regarding these gorgets in the "which should thief use" debate. Does it raise fTP by .1 for all the hits of the weapon skill, or just the first hit? Very hard to prove one way or another, but could be important.

hrm, so to do this you would have to find an enemy weak enough to last say 2 hits of a WS(or any set amount), but always that amount. And at the same time, you have to have a capped pdif?

boreal hound seems perfect for this

Do they have like 0 def or are they just really squishy? Sortta like Apollyn SE mobs.

you'll be divided by zero if their def is really 0
they are just similar to qutrub... they eat double damage (2.5x ? or triple damage? I don't know)