Light Gorget and Shadow Gorget

[LinktheDeme]

edit: I just remembered what the huge question was regarding these gorgets in the "which should thief use" debate. Does it raise fTP by .1 for all the hits of the weapon skill, or just the first hit? Very hard to prove one way or another, but could be important.

hrm, so to do this you would have to find an enemy weak enough to last say 2 hits of a WS(or any set amount), but always that amount. And at the same time, you have to have a capped pdif?

boreal hound seems perfect for this

Do they have like 0 def or are they just really squishy? Sortta like Apollyn SE mobs.

you'll be divided by zero if their def is really 0
they are just similar to qutrub... they eat double damage (2.5x ? or triple damage? I don't know)

. . . divided by zero? Whats the damage equation aganist mobs? Also if i have 0 def will mobs hit me for zero too? :D

[Codernaut]

. . . divided by zero? Whats the damage equation aganist mobs? Also if i have 0 def will mobs hit me for zero too?

They'd hit you for an undefined amount of damage (infinity)!

Actually, they'd just likely their pDIF factor in the damage equation capped. Pretty sure SE's equation would ignore any divide by 0's or it'd be pretty easy to crash their servers.

[VZX]

Actually, they'd just likely their pDIF factor in the damage equation capped. Pretty sure SE's equation would ignore any divide by 0's or it'd be pretty easy to crash their servers.

- That's why they didn't make any mob with 0 defense
- That's why they make defense down in form of %, not subtraction
- That's why they cap defense down to 128/256 (not too sure. but assuming they work similar to magical counterpart, it works like that).

division by zero will give you a NaN, not infinity (but, the limit of dividing a non-infinitesimal number with infinitesimal number is infinity)

[aurik]

The minimum value for all stats is 1.

There's a mob in Dynamis-Tavnazia that has an attack that gives -100% attack (Nightmare Leeches Acid Mist, lulz) and your attack will be exactly 1 under the influence of this status effect.

Only exception that I can think of to this: newbie mobs are actually level -1 or so, judging by the xp they give to lv 1 characters.

[archibaldcrane]

edit: I just remembered what the huge question was regarding these gorgets in the "which should thief use" debate. Does it raise fTP by .1 for all the hits of the weapon skill, or just the first hit? Very hard to prove one way or another, but could be important.

hrm, so to do this you would have to find an enemy weak enough to last say 2 hits of a WS(or any set amount), but always that amount. And at the same time, you have to have a capped pdif?

Yep, pretty much. The capped "atk/def ratio" is the easy part, it's just finding a mob with that right amount of HP to survive, say, the first hit of SA/DE all the time, but will die to the 2nd hit all the time. More specifically, I need a mob that will live from a 1.1 fTP/3.0 pDIF SAEV (the highest a first hit can be), but die to a 2.0 fTP/2.6 pDIF SAEV (the lowest a 2-hit can be). Might have to bring a lowbie character out also that can con them to determine exact levels so I know exactly which ones to test on. I'm thinking Sauromugue Champaign beetles as my first subject maybe. I can just go naked with a dagger and torque/no torque to keep my damage lower.

Boreal Hound multiplies your damage like a mouth-open Hmphede, and all 5 hits won't kill it. Need to isolate a single hit past the first.

If someone with Blast Arrow wants to save me a ton of grief and do this with ranged, that would be very helpful. (Ranged attacks have no variance in pDIF when atk/def is capped, therefore the only variable is fTP, and Blast Arrow is 2-hits according to wiki). From what I can tell, if proper gorget on (Like Snow Gorget) for blast-arrow during a WS that lands both hits on a too-weak mob gives a damage boost of 6.66666% (3.2 fTP over 3.0 fTP) over no torque, then torques affect fTP for all hits of a weapon skill, not just the first. If proper gorget on for blast arrow only gives a damage boost of 3.3333% (3.1 fTP over 3.0 fTP) then gorgets only affect the first hit of the WS, and additional hits are still just +1.0 fTP.

You could do this easily against something that won't die (since blast is only 2 hits, the mob doesn't have to die) but you'll definitely be capped on (like some random level 30 mob. Eat meat to be sure you're capped).

[archibaldcrane]

Updated the best test to determine the whole "do gorgets affect additional hits of multi-hit WS, or just the first" in the prior post. A ranger with a bit of time on their hands (not too much honestly, would take maybe 45 mins) that could grind these #s out with Blast Arrow and a Snow or Light Gorget would be very, very helpful.

[VZX]

Blast Shot /Arrow is 1 hit despite the animation suggest 2 hit

[archibaldcrane]

Goddamnit. I'll let you fix the wiki page then.

...grumble...that would've been so much fucking easier.

[Damen]

Objective:
Do sea gorgets affect multihit WSs outside of first hit?

Katana: Single handed Shirani

Methods:
Basically I took a level 67SMN/NIN and stripped him down naked and took him to Diorama.

I went as NIN/RNG and built TP on a summoned carbuncle. Then I used ichi, hit him once, then weaponskilled. I removed Brutal Earring replaced with a Diabolos's Earring for obvious reasons.

376ATT vs 118DEF
106STR vs 56VIT

Breeze Gorget:
Lows:
163
166
172
172
171

Mids:
211
212
216

Highs:
300
300

(Average although somewhat irrelevant: 208 )

Peacock Charm:
Lows:
154
158
168

Mids:
180
186
218
212

Highs:
247
275
277

(Average: 207.5)


I also did some slug shots as reference.

Slug Shot @ 7.0 distance:

Breeze Gorget:

865
867
868
869
875
878
880
882
883
889

(average: 875.6)

P.charm:

859
860
866
868
870
871
871
871
877
882

(average: 869.5)

Conclusion:
While the averages are very close, I say they are irrelevent due to the fact that I hit more "Mids" than Lows and etc so they don't really mean much. The numbers varied pretty significantly from 154-300. If you cluster up the lows, mids, and highs, you can see that the average per each 'class' raises and appear to vary less with the gorget.

I'd say Breeze Gorget affects all hits in Blade: Jin. Thus deducting further that Sea Gorgets affect all hits in a WS.

/shrug it's possible that the gorget registers only on the first 'landed' hit so come to your own conclusions.

[GSDragoon]

Objective:
Do sea gorgets affect multihit WSs outside of first hit?

Katana: Single handed Shirani

Methods:
Basically I took a level 67SMN/NIN and stripped him down naked and took him to Diorama.

I went as NIN/RNG and built TP on a summoned carbuncle. Then I used ichi, hit him once, then weaponskilled. I removed Brutal Earring replaced with a Diabolos's Earring for obvious reasons.

376ATT vs 118DEF
106STR vs 56VIT

Breeze Gorget:
Lows:
163
166
172
172
171

Mids:
211
212
216

Highs:
300
300

(Average although somewhat irrelevant: 208 )

Peacock Charm:
Lows:
154
158
168

Mids:
180
186
218
212

Highs:
247
275
277

(Average: 207.5)


I also did some slug shots as reference.

Slug Shot @ 7.0 distance:

Breeze Gorget:

865
867
868
869
875
878
880
882
883
889

(average: 875.6)

P.charm:

859
860
866
868
870
871
871
871
877
882

(average: 869.5)

Conclusion:
While the averages are very close, I say they are irrelevent due to the fact that I hit more "Mids" than Lows and etc so they don't really mean much. The numbers varied pretty significantly from 154-300. If you cluster up the lows, mids, and highs, you can see that the average per each 'class' raises and appear to vary less with the gorget.

I'd say Breeze Gorget affects all hits in Blade: Jin. Thus deducting further that Sea Gorgets affect all hits in a WS.

/shrug it's possible that the gorget registers only on the first 'landed' hit so come to your own conclusions.

Nice test, but I don't think it helps us determin if they add dmg to the other hits in a ws besides the first. What you need is a mob with enough HP to last exactly 2 hits of a multi-hit WS, right?

[archibaldcrane]

...><

Yes that is my complete response to the above poster's post.

[XxSlusherxx]

Multi hit ws are based on a completly diffrent formula in Ballista

[Damen]

Nice test, but I don't think it helps us determin if they add dmg to the other hits in a ws besides the first. What you need is a mob with enough HP to last exactly 2 hits of a multi-hit WS, right?

Yeah, I guess when I was doing the test I assumed that the "first hit" implied the first swing, which I guess is a fallacy now that I think about it. I could redo the same test with Jin (which i might do anyways out of sheer boredom) in that I whack off two shadows instead of just one so I only hit him twice. Assuming that I get the same "Groups" of highs/mids/lows and assuming that two hits of a WS has a chance of "One High, One Low" or "One High, One Mid" etc, I believe it would be hard to come to any conclusions unless I just get a really high sample size. Also, in order to be conclusive (it's still ballista though) I think Breeze Gorget would have to show double improvement over the single hit test.

Multi hit ws are based on a completly diffrent formula in Ballista

You're right, and that's part of the reason I did the slug shot(single hit) tests just to see how Slug was affected by the Gorget in ballista. Whereas you'll get different results from mobs vs PvP, the fact remains that it does seem to show evidence of an increase in damage based on lowest lows and highest highs. I'll also assume that pre multihit "nerf" in ballista, that I wouldn't have got this variance in damage with the multihits. I guess my rationale was just because its calculated differently doesn't mean that gear suddenly 'doesn't work.' It's just the applications might be a little different outside on PvE mobs.

I'm gonna have to pull a Sage Sundi on this one: "I don't know."

I'll probably do the 2 hit version of jin with utsusemi when I'm just utterly bored just to see the results.

[Thitaubian]

Would these test work with a two hit WS like fast blade, raging axe, tachi: enpi etc?

[VZX]

Would these test work with a two hit WS like fast blade, raging axe, tachi: enpi etc?

What are you trying to say?

[archibaldcrane]

VZX - do Damen's tests satisfy you to an appropriate extent? They definitely look like a step far into the right direction, (proving that gorgets affect fTP for all hits). What do you think?

[Thitaubian]

Would these test work with a two hit WS like fast blade, raging axe, tachi: enpi etc?

What are you trying to say?

I'm trying to say ... why do people keep trying to do these test with jin or DE?
did I miss some important part where it had to be a multihit WS with more than 2 hits for this test to work?

edit:
I think i understand your question now. Sorry should have been more clear. Why do the two people that talked of proving if gorgets affect hits past the first talk of using DE and Jin respectivly when there are WS that by default only have 2 hits?
btw is Blade: Retsu 3 hits (2 from ws 1 from offhand) or 2 hits (none from offhand) or 1 hit (one from ws 1 from offhand and the description on the website i checked it on is wrong)?

[VZX]

VZX - do Damen's tests satisfy you to an appropriate extent? They definitely look like a step far into the right direction, (proving that gorgets affect fTP for all hits). What do you think?

It doesn't tell me that much, unfortunately.
The best approach I could think is either:
- isolate that all landed hits are full-hit + no DA/TA involvement + all criticals
- isolate that all landed hits are full-hit + no DA/TA involvement + all non-criticals
and then again, as mentioned before, we must deal with "pDIF range variance"

- Suppose X is your capped damage on 5-hit WS.
- Let's have fTP = 1.00 on first hit and ,of course, fTP=1.00 on subsequent hit.

if, all 5-hit lands, then we have fTP = 5.0
and if all 5-hit lands on pDIF=3.0 on each of them, fTP*pDIF = 15.0

Case 1 : If gorgets only give .1 in first hits:
fTP will be 1.1+1+1+1+1 = 5.1 and pDIF will be 3.0 for all hits
fTP*pDIF = 15.3 <- this is the upper bound, due fTP can range from 2.6-3.0.
The lower bound is fTP*pDIF = 13.26

Case2 : If gorgets give .1 on every hit:
fTP will be 1.1+1.1+1.1+1.1+1.1 = 5.5 and pDIF will be 3.0 for all hits
fTP*pDIF = 16.5 <- this is the upper bound, due fTP can range from 2.6-3.0.
The lower bound is fTP*pDIF = 14.3

So the simplest way I can think of is that if fTP*pDIF > 15.3, then gorgets not only give you .1 on first hit.

but again, the lower bound on case 2 is < than upper bound on case 1. so that we need a few tests :/

[Devek]

Ever considered that one of the benefits of a gorget is that if you miss your primary swings the additional ones make up for it?

Sounds stupid I know.. but the big difference I noticed with using soil gorget on Asuran Fists was high damage numbers with only 10tp returns.

[XxSlusherxx]

with the low number of samples in Damen's test I'd say the average being nearly the same is pretyt relivant, espeially when compared to his results with Sidewinder.