Bleach

**arus2001** · 2014-01-16 20:18

Man, if the Muramasa arc happened in the manga, we probably still wouldn't have Aizen beaten.

**Gredival** · 2014-01-16 20:38

Originally Posted by Fwahm

I said it because it was explicitly stated that it takes the full cooperation of your zanpaktou spirit in order to use bankai at all.

The only way for it to even be possible to have "partial full cooperation" is if different parts of the spirit (or multiple spirits, like with Ichigo, possibly) can cooperate independently of other, like if it had a split personality. And hey, Zabimaru explicitly has a split personality in it's only canon speaking role.

I'm of course not saying it's definitely the truth, but I think it's very likely.

No Bankai requires the subjugation of the Zanpaktou spirit after manifesting it in the real world (comparative to meeting the spirit in your inner world). I don't know where you are getting "full cooperation" from.

I mean if that was true, then Ichigo shouldn't have been able to Bankai either, because he never had White Zangetsu's full cooperation, only Quincy Zangetsu.

It is completely plausible that Renji only partially subjugated Zabimaru and therefore it gave him a false Bankai name that only unlocked part of its true potential.

**Fwahm** · 2014-01-16 21:55

The subjugation of the spirit is a method by which the soul reaper forces the spirit to fully cooperate with them. That's how they get the normally reluctant spirit to teach them. The subjugation itself isn't what causes it.

Ichigo is highly irregular, what with him having two separate spirits, one hollow and one quincy. You can't use him for evidence on what is and is not possible for normal soul reapers. Even in your example, you said that Ichigo shouldn't be able to bankai because he doesn't have the cooperation of Zangetsu, but nor did he subjugate him until after he learned bankai, so your theory doesn't work either; Urahara's device brought out Old Man Zangetsu instead.

**kuronosan** · 2014-01-16 22:01

Can't believe it but I'm agreeing with Gredi.

**Abandon** · 2014-01-17 03:52

this is dumb, and kurono, we're agreeing again.

**kuronosan** · 2014-01-17 14:55

Seriously. Subjugation required for Bankai? Subjugation was required for Ichigo to control his hollow. For Bankai they materialize their sword, then fight with it to prove their "worth".

Unless I missed something 400 chapters ago, it was never stated that Ichigo had to "Subjugate" Zangetsu.

**Serra** · 2014-01-17 15:30

Subjugation is part of Bankai -- materialization and subjugation. How is up to each particular Zanpakuto. Zangetsu chose to have them fight with the multiple swords, and Icigho (presumably) beat him to subjugate him.

Spoiler: show

These are from chapter 127, so yeah, about 400 chapters ago..

That said, the easiest explanation I can think of is that Zabimaru knew that Renji wouldn't be able to pass its test, so it devised an alternative test that Renji was able to win to subjugate it and Renji received the Bankai he's used till now.

Or we could just go with "Kubo is reconning shit~"

**Gredival** · 2014-01-17 18:42

Ok here's my attempt to put this to rest.

You claim the false name trick would be exclusive to Renji because it could only work with a Zanpaktou that exhibited a split personality. Your interpretation is that Renji got the "cooperation" of only one half of Zabimaru before, which is why he had an incomplete Bankai, but now that he has the cooperation of both halves he has a name that unlocks its full potential.

The rest of us have pointed to Yumichika, who releases his Shikai with different names to control which powers get released, as evidence this is naming trick not an exclusive thing to Renji.

You argue because Bankai requires "full cooperation" of the Zanpaktou, unlike Shikai, it would be exclusive to Renji since only a Zanpaktou with a split personality like Zabimaru could ever give its "full cooperation" to unlock Bankai, but still have a part of the spirit not cooperating to prevent a full Bankai.

Originally Posted by Fwahm

The subjugation of the spirit is a method by which the soul reaper forces the spirit to fully cooperate with them. That's how they get the normally reluctant spirit to teach them. The subjugation itself isn't what causes it.

Now the reason why this doesn't make sense is because all that is ever said in the series about Bankai is that requires materialization and subjugation. See Serra's post above. You are reading "full cooperation" as the end product of subjugation where there is no textual support for that requirement

Given that "full cooperation" is never said to be a requirement, it is completely possible that (as the rest of us are saying) Renji subjugated Zabimaru, but it did recognize him fully, so he gave him a false Bankai name. Thus Renji achieved Bankai, but not at its full potential. No need to say you have two spirits with one "fully cooperating" and one not cooperating.

Ichigo is highly irregular, what with him having two separate spirits, one hollow and one quincy. You can't use him for evidence on what is and is not possible for normal soul reapers. Even in your example, you said that Ichigo shouldn't be able to bankai because he doesn't have the cooperation of Zangetsu, but nor did he subjugate him until after he learned bankai, so your theory doesn't work either; Urahara's device brought out Old Man Zangetsu instead.

No the relevant point here is that Ichigo achieved a Bankai while never getting "full cooperation." Regardless of which Zangetsu you want to refer to, Bach Zangetsu or White Zangetsu, Ichigo only succeeded in subjugation not "full cooperation."

In the case of White, Ichigo always beat White but White would remind Ichigo that he will always have to fight for control of his power. That's not "full cooperation" - it's temporary subjugation. But as you point out, Ichigo never encounters White until after he already unlocks Bankai, so the relevant spirit is Bach Zangetsu.

In the case of Bach Zangetsu, even after Ichigo manifested Bach and subjuated him to learn Bankai, Bach kept information from Ichigo. First, he was suppressing Ichigo's true Shinigami powers (the sword that Ichigo sees behind Bach, which I'm assuming represents "Zangetsu" the Shinigami half without the Hollow White). Second, he refused to teach Ichigo the Final Getsuga.

The fact that Ichigo had to subsequently confront Bach, even after learning Bankai, shows that one can achieve Bankai without gaining the "full cooperation" of the spirit when it is first unlocked.

That is way more information than should be necessary to convince you.

**Abandon** · 2014-01-18 22:35

/slowclap

**Obsidian** · 2014-01-20 03:14

Originally Posted by Gredival

We've seen that the name with which the Zanpaktou is released affects the form with Yuchimika, so I think the trick is repeatable.

The situations are kind of different though. Yumichika (however you spell his name) is basically insulting his zanpakuto by using the wrong name. Zabimaru was basically insulting Renji by insinuating that he wasn't strong enough, or worthy enough, to be given all the power it was capable of. You could almost argue that the situation is more analogous to Hisagi's, in that he and his zanpakuto don't exactly seem to see eye to eye, which creates problems for him when he releases it (both against Findor and more recently when Kensei tries to force him to use Bankai).

**Sho** · 2014-01-20 22:43

Kenpachi gives no fucks bout no zanpaktou subjugation.

**Guitarman** · 2014-01-20 22:58

Still waiting for him to show up and fuck some bitches up. it's going to be amazing.

**Serif** · 2014-01-21 00:05

I would laugh if he showed up and went straight after Ichigo just to test him

**Correction** · 2014-01-21 13:57

Originally Posted by Guitarman

Still waiting for him to show up and fuck some bitches up. it's going to be amazing.

We haven't seen him in nearly a year now. MASTER PACING.

**BadKarma** · 2014-01-22 03:31

Originally Posted by Correction

We haven't seen him in nearly a year now. MASTER PACING.

has it really been that long?

**arus2001** · 2014-01-22 05:38

In this week's episode of Bleach M:

The baby!
The baby!
The baby!

**Serra** · 2014-01-22 05:42

http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/565

Spoiler: show

**Abandon** · 2014-01-22 09:59

i cared very little for any of that info.

**Insanecyclone** · 2014-01-22 10:01

Ichigo is going to bleach this guy out with his part hollow.

**Correction** · 2014-01-22 11:29

Originally Posted by BadKarma

has it really been that long?

The last time we saw Kenpachi was mid-February of 2013

Also this chapter fucking sucks.

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