Bleach

[Serif]

It would help if you actually made counterpoints, instead of just making single word statements of disbelief.

The Royal Guard training is ridiculous.

Mask de Masculine, after his first powerup, effortlessly curbstomped Kensei and Rose. Then, Shikai Renji effortlessly blocked his laser, then blocked a punch ten times stronger than what was breaking Kensei's bones. Then, Mask powered up AGAIN to the point that he transformed, and was punching Renji miles away, and STILL wasn't hurting him. Finally, he used Vollstandig (a massive powerup), and Renji could still curbstomp him by going bankai.

RG Bankai Renji >>>>> Vollstandig Final form MdM > RG Shikai Renji >>> Final Form MdM >>> Angry, 2nd form MdM >>> 2nd form MdM >>> Kensei and Rose >> pre-RG Renji

Shunsui is powerful, but he's not THAT powerful. Shunsui was having trouble with Starrk in terms of speed and power, and was actually going to bankai before Ukitake appeared. That same Starrk used his strongest attack on 2 Vizard Captains, and did less damage than 2nd form MdM. Granted, they had their masks on, but they might have improved over the time skip. Even if they hadn't improved over the time skip, putting on their masks isn't even close to a 10x boost, which MdM got just by being angry.

Unohana was stronger than Shunsui is, according to the databook, her being their senior, and Unohana stating that no one was as strong as she is after the war. Thus, Neo Kenpachi is also stronger than Shunsui.

Now, Rukia is likely weaker than Renji, especially if it turns out she doesn't have a bankai, but RG training is so plot-tastic and ridiculous, and the fact that Rukia just utterly speedblitzed and curbstomped an opponent that Byakuya stated would be impossible for normal captains like him to defeat without a bankai, puts her on senior captain level easily, IMO.

As much are you are trying to make sense of it all. It makes no sense in the end. This is basically comparing how strong Goku is too Uub. Also add in Mystic Gohan, SSJ4 Gogeta, and Krillan. Once you start guessing power levels on a manga that has gone this long with so many things forgotten and plot holes, you should grab a fork and put in you.

Next week Rukia is going to be one shotted by a guy who Shunsui is going to one shot in return.

[kuronosan]

I LIKE TO IMAGINE BOOK STUFF TO BE TRUE THEREFORE TRUE BECAUSE BLEACH WORKS LIKE DBZ

Except no. It frankly is not worth the effort to continually explain to you why you are wrong because in your royal realm you are never wrong.

[Ayn]

If Hitsugaya could reach close to absolute zero with his ice, then Kubo would have

And that's why your logic fails. But if you want counterpoints. .

If Hitsugaya could reach close to absolute zero with his ice, then Kubo would have had him mention it in one of his fights. That's how he explains characters abilities. Instead of talking about the temperature of his ice, Kubo emphasized his range and control. In addition, none of Hitsugaya's ice, even in bankai, has had even close to as drastic of effects as Rukia's absolute zero touch upon contact. If Hitsugaya's ice was even close to absolute zero, then Luppi, a foe much less powerful than As Nodt, would have been left like As Nodt was in this chapter as soon as Hitsugaya's ice touched him.

I actually see the point you're going for here, but you seem to be trying to argue that Kubo's pattern of explaining abilities is an absolute that cannot be broken. We can laugh and say "Kubo logic", but there could be a host of other reasons that Kubo left that detail out. Him breaking that pattern is not a 100% indicator of Hitsugaya not being able to reach absolute zero. The only basis you have right now is "He's never done it that way before", whereas I believe an earlier poster noted (and posted evidence of) the fact that it's been directly stated Hyorinmaru is the strongest ice-type Zanpakuto.

Shunsui said that Hitsugaya will probably surpass him in 100 years. That has absolutely no bearing on how good Hitsugaya or his sword is right now, and also doesn't take into account Royal Guard training like Rukia took, since Shunsui has no way of sending Hitsugaya to get such training. I would be unsurprised if Rukia was on the same tier as Shunsui right now (well, if she has a bankai, I suppose), just because of how broken training with the Royal Guard is.

I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that Rukia, who's been a garbage tier character for pretty much the entire series, got training to put her on the same level as Shunsui. Captain level? Perhaps (but seriously, what the fuck does that even mean these days), but Shunsui? I'm hard pressed to believe that.

I don't want to stretch this argument to ridiculous lengths. At best, I'm indifferent to Hitsugaya (I don't hate him as much as everyone else around here seems to be), but it seems like the Royal Guard training, at best, for a character like Rukia, helped close the gap, and perhaps surpass some other characters.

[Fwahm]

Hitsugaya's zanpaktou was stated to be the strongest ice type before Rukia underwent Royal Guard training. Things can change, you know; things can be surpassed.

Or, alternatively, Hyorinmaru is still not fully developed while Sode no Shirayuki is (due to Royal Guard training), so while Hyorinmaru's shikai has more potential, Sode no Shirayuki's shikai is currently stronger, at least in pure power. Unlike Hitsugaya, she can't extend her freezing offense to parts beyond her body, nor does it have as much utility (like ice clones or stopping bleeding). Against a faster opponent, Hyorinmaru might be more effective, since you don't have to physically touch your opponent to freeze them.

[Ayn]

Hitsugaya's zanpaktou was stated to be the strongest ice type before Rukia underwent Royal Guard training. Things can change, you know; things can be surpassed.

I'm quite aware that things can be changed, and surpassed, and I did not ignore your point about the Royal Guard training.

Rukia's level of training does not necessarily change the earlier stated fact that Hyorinmaru is the strongest ice-type zanpakatou. If we want to make an argument using your earlier line of logic on 'that's how Kubo explains things', then why would that have been stated earlier? Or why wouldn't Rukia have made some line about "The true Sode no Shirayuki is the strongest ice-type"? Ok, cheap shot, but moving along:

Or, alternatively, Hyorinmaru is still not fully developed while Sode no Shirayuki is (due to Royal Guard training), so while Hyorinmaru's shikai has more potential, Sode no Shirayuki's shikai is currently stronger, at least in pure power.

This is the line of thought I'm more inclined to agree with, honestly. Hitsugaya has the stronger weapon, and is arguably the stronger character/has more potential. Whatever perceived edge Rukia might have comes from the Royal Guard training, but even then, it's probably just bringing her up to speed (if even that) with other captain level characters.

[Karbuncle]

I'd like to believe Hyorinmaru is the strongest ice Type Zanpakatou, but right now Rukia has more control over hers and understands hers better than Hitsugaya, therefor her Zanpakatou is currently more powerful due to this control. But too look at it in a way I think we'll all understand, Rukia is a pimped out THF, while Hitsu is a Decent tier MNK, while Rukia is currently better, point for point when Hitsu learns how to master his more, He'll become better in the long run, as he has a higher "Cap" on his power.

So basically the gap in their current power falls on skill/understanding of their Zanpakatou, not on the actual true power of them.

That or you guys are looking into way to seriously and Its just saying Hitsugaya has a fucking Ice dragon and Rukias is some frostchick.

[Xno Kappa]

Mystic Gohan is the strongest by the end of Z. This is fact.

[Serra]

Unless Rukia pulls out a Bankai, then no, she is not even in the same realm as Hitsuguya. Bankai is five to ten times more powerful, so just no.
http://i15.mangapanda.com/bleach/120/bleach-11498.jpg

[Ayn]

So basically the gap in their current power falls on skill/understanding of their Zanpakatou, not on the actual true power of them.

Yes, this is the most concise way of articulating one of the main things I was getting at. Thank you.

But too look at it in a way I think we'll all understand, Rukia is a pimped out THF, while Hitsu is a Decent tier MNK,

Edit: Also SMN needs a buff.

[kuronosan]

Except that argument fails, because Hitsugaya completed his bankai during the time skip.

Both Rukia and Renji experienced plotkai and nothing more.

By the way, Hitsu was half dead because he had to face Bazz B, a fire user, who promptly blew a hole in him, using a shikai that had all the potency of his bankai and none of the range.

I'll say that again.

Bazz B = Fire. Hitsu = Ice. While weakened.

Once he got full control of the ice back, he one shotted Cang Du. While he was severely weakened.

I'm not a fan of Hitsurrorists, but it's pretty obvious who's stronger.

[Xno Kappa]

Not to say it's canon, but dude had an entire movie dedicated to him. A second string character. Pretty obvious who Kubo places on a pedestal.

[Tymon]

He wins all of the character polls. Bishonen 3edgy5me character that gets all of the Japanese female fans to read the manga.

Why are we even arguing like Bleach power levels are consistent at all? Because they clearly aren't.

[Abandon]

If we really wanna argue, one could say that Rukia does NOT have an ice-type.

[BWYuko]

If we really wanna argue, one could say that Rukia does NOT have an ice-type.

This. My question implied this.

At absolute zero, matter theoretically stops all motion. Getting real cold is just a byproduct.

[Correction]

I think what we're really losing sight of is the fact that Rukia was in a backless waifu dress with bed hair at the start of the chapter, and that was the best part.

[Abandon]

I'd say she has the ability to lower temperature, which has nothing to do with ice, other than the fact that water is one of the most abundant things around, and so we see it freeze more than anything else.

[Abandon]

I think what we're really losing sight of is the fact that Rukia was in a backless waifu dress with bed hair at the start of the chapter, and that was the best part.

go the fuck outside.

[Correction]

Ok I'll make it really easy for y'all.

Rukia = Elijah Snow:
http://i.minus.com/i8jBYEyW2cH0Q.png

That shitty little kid nobody over the age of 15 likes = Iceman:
http://i.minus.com/iSRhAhhJZ0oQG.gif

Arguing over which is a higher tier power is...fuck...stop it.

[kuronosan]

If we really wanna argue, one could say that Rukia does NOT have an ice-type.

It's snow-type, I thought.

One of my main arguments for the difference between them was that Rukia manipulates heat by decreasing molecular motion, the byproduct being decreased heat.

Hitsu manipulates ice, so technically he could control the ice in her body.

CHECKMATE, ATHEISTS!

[Guitarman]

It's snow-type, I thought.

One of my main arguments for the difference between them was that Rukia manipulates heat by decreasing molecular motion, the byproduct being decreased heat.

Hitsu manipulates ice, so technically he could control the ice in her body.

CHECKMATE, ATHEISTS!

Ok that thought cracked me the fuck up. She goes ice-mode, he makes her do the chicken dance against her will.