Bleach

[kuronosan]

Well after this there's no doubt in my mind that 1) Barragan was a VL and 2) He was the original #1 Espada.

Clearly the Hougyokou has a profound effect on their transformation and potential power. With Barragan, it looks like his hollow form and his release form were exactly the same - something we didn't see with any of the others (yet).

[Ragnus]

Hollow - Bleach Wiki

Vasto Lorde, vasuto rōde; Spanish for "Vast/Enormous King/Lord", Japanese for "Highest Great Hollow") are the very most powerful class of Menos, and the final stage in the Menos evolutionary line. They appear almost completely humanoid, and surpass an average Captain-Class Shinigami in power, skill, and speed.


Barrigan being humanoid before meeting Aizen kinda helps with my previous notion that he is one. Then again it is Bleach so common sense is right out the window.

[Souj]

I'm one to ussually debate about this kind of stuff, but I really dont know or care enough about what HM was like and who was what before Aizen came. none of it makes sense time line wise.Aizens appearance, when stuff happened with the flash backs, the only way it would have made sense was if Aizen went to HM waaaaay before Aizen "died" in the SS arc.


as far as the barrigan arguement goes, youre saying he couldnt be king because he wasnt in the espada? Being in the Espada isnt a requirement for being strong, or a "king" Espada is a rank made up by Aizen. He could have easily got to Barrigan after founding the espada.

[Nuriko]

Well, I think it's pretty clear Aizen took over HM before the SS arc started. Looking at his appearance in this flashback shows how he looked before leaving SS, but a currently aged Gin and Tousen (unlike the pendulum arc), so my guess is it would have had to happen between the two points, probably a little while before the series started since they were already experimenting with making arrancar's when Ichigo first defeated Grand Fisher (Bleach 25 page 18 | One Manga)

And I think the espada existed before Aizen got there, as mentioned earlier there's that group who were kicked out and given numbers 100+ after Aizen got there and started his arrancar experiments.

[Stilzkin]

Wasn't Barragan a bit weak for him to have been a Vasto Lord? Thought VLs were supposed to be stronger than captains. He got beat too easily. Think Barragan could have been a much better character if he had stopped with his "aging speech" and actually swung his axe. He just seemed like an old man who had trouble moving around. Seems like Kubo doesn't know what pace to go at, one chapter nothing happens the next a "strong" villain dies and than another whole chapter on that villain dying.

[Mythe_Seraph]

He wasn't really beaten by a captain though. Yeah, she damaged him, but it was Hacchi who really beat him, and by doing what he did, he could have beaten him at any time I would assume. Seems like a fluke really.

[Stilzkin]

Being completey destroyed by a fluke says weak to me.

[Nuriko]

Eh, it was a unique ability possessed probably by only kidou masters that made the kill. I don't think any captains have the ability to cut off their and and transport it inside another being. This was less a battle of strength and more a battle of knowledge and strategy.

[Boyiee]

Wasn't Barragan a bit weak for him to have been a Vasto Lord? Thought VLs were supposed to be stronger than captains. He got beat too easily.

Hollow - Bleach Wiki

Vasto Lorde, vasuto rōde; Spanish for "Vast/Enormous King/Lord", Japanese for "Highest Great Hollow") are the very most powerful class of Menos, and the final stage in the Menos evolutionary line. They appear almost completely humanoid, and surpass an average Captain-Class Shinigami in power, skill, and speed.

a couple posts up

[kuronosan]

I fail to see how a critical weakness makes a character weak. Even strong enemies have a weakness. Look at Achilles. All the might and speed any greek could ask for and he was taken down by an arrow to the heel. ai guess he was a weakling too.

[Zilong]

kryptonite like weakness may work on a mythological epic, but throwing it into a genre where complete obliteration of the every atom of one's being is the requirement for killing 99% of the character is just retarded.

I'll accept your Achilles heel analogy when he's out fighting the pantheons of gods and titans and other mythological creatures, but frankly there is a bald pale guy that does that, and frankly the only reason that works awesomely is that because his only critical flaw is ADD.

[Sho]

THOSE FUCKING SMURFS DID IT!

Said this shit IRL, lol.

[Sho]

I'm one to ussually debate about this kind of stuff, but I really dont know or care enough about what HM was like and who was what before Aizen came. none of it makes sense time line wise.Aizens appearance, when stuff happened with the flash backs, the only way it would have made sense was if Aizen went to HM waaaaay before Aizen "died" in the SS arc.


as far as the barrigan arguement goes, youre saying he couldnt be king because he wasnt in the espada? Being in the Espada isnt a requirement for being strong, or a "king" Espada is a rank made up by Aizen. He could have easily got to Barrigan after founding the espada.

Are you really arguing this after seeing the chapter, and knowing Aizen busted into Barrigan's crib and took his PALACE from him, the KING? (based on your other post)

They basically showed you who was the ruler of Hueco Mundo, there shouldn't be any debate on if he's king or not. Also I told all you bitches these people and others are all Vastro Lorde like 4-5 months ago.

[Souj]

They basically showed you who was the ruler of Hueco Mundo, there shouldn't be any debate on if he's king or not. Also I told all you bitches these people and others are all Vastro Lorde like 4-5 months ago.

I believe he believed he was King. not that he was the king.
just like Pumpkin Ballerina had the fasted shunpo, and Nnoitra was uncuttable.
and theres still no proof there's any VLs. I still believe the only VL Aizen has atm is Wonderweisse.

and actually, maybe he was King. but that whole thing is just retarded on Kubo's part. just all of a sudden "hay thar be a king of HM and Im it." never before has there been any hint of anyone taking orders from any king. then for 1 panel there is. So therefore, he's not king. just a retarded guy who's retarded and a waste of not stupid stuff.

[Sho]

I believe he believed he was King. not that he was the king.
just like Pumpkin Ballerina had the fasted shunpo, and Nnoitra was uncuttable.
and theres still no proof there's any VLs. I still believe the only VL Aizen has atm is Wonderweisse.

and actually, maybe he was King. but that whole thing is just retarded on Kubo's part. just all of a sudden "hay thar be a king of HM and Im it." never before has there been any hint of anyone taking orders from any king. then for 1 panel there is. So therefore, he's not king. just a retarded guy who's retarded and a waste of not stupid stuff.

XD Well I believed what you believed until Kubo gave the back-story, as someone else foresaw in this thread-- the story invalidates everything, and yet solves the huge mystery on how Aizen came to rule Hueco Mundo in such a short time. Can't say I didn't expect it, but it happened anyways, stupid illusion sword.

[Nuriko]

Didn't Grimjow's fraccion all call Grimjow the king or something like that? Maybe king really is just a relative term based on who everyone surrounds themselves with...

[Stilzkin]

Originally Posted by Ragnus
Hollow - Bleach Wiki

Vasto Lorde, vasuto rōde; Spanish for "Vast/Enormous King/Lord", Japanese for "Highest Great Hollow") are the very most powerful class of Menos, and the final stage in the Menos evolutionary line. They appear almost completely humanoid, and surpass an average Captain-Class Shinigami in power, skill, and speed.

Isn't Soi Fon an average captain and Hacchi a VC? Barragan was arrancarized too so he should have been stronger than a VL. Just seems like a VL should have been able to do more than use one cheap move over and over. He didn't even kill Soi Fon's VC. Them losing arms seems like Kubo trying to make it seem like it was actually a fight.

I fail to see how a critical weakness makes a character weak. Even strong enemies have a weakness. Look at Achilles. All the might and speed any greek could ask for and he was taken down by an arrow to the heel. ai guess he was a weakling too.

Imagine if Achilles never actually did anything but was hyped up to be an amazing warrior. Now imagine if the one fight he does get it's revealed that all he can do is push someone and it kils them instantly. He can't run or dodge or anything just slowly walk up and push people, and when he goes to push the person he is fighting he misses and falls off a cliff and dies. That's Barragan.

[Siniroth]

Isn't Soi Fon an average captain and Hacchi a VC? Barragan was arrancarized too so he should have been stronger than a VL. Just seems like a VL should have been able to do more than use one cheap move over and over. He didn't even kill Soi Fon's VC. Them losing arms seems like Kubo trying to make it seem like it was actually a fight.



Imagine if Achilles never actually did anything but was hyped up to be an amazing warrior. Now imagine if the one fight he does get it's revealed that all he can do is push someone and it kils them instantly. He can't run or dodge or anything just slowly walk up and push people, and when he goes to push the person he is fighting he misses and falls off a cliff and dies. That's Barragan.

Hacchi was the VC type person of the kido corps no? I don't think we've been made aware of their strength compared to other captains yet, also he's a vaizard, and we're not aware of his true level of power yet, given their extra length of time compared to the arracar Aizen made, he and the other vaizards could be more used to their abilities and be stronger overall

[Kaylia]

Imagine if Achilles never actually did anything but was hyped up to be an amazing warrior. Now imagine if the one fight he does get it's revealed that all he can do is push someone and it kils them instantly. He can't run or dodge or anything just slowly walk up and push people, and when he goes to push the person he is fighting he misses and falls off a cliff and dies. That's Barragan.

You guys might want to check how Death is depicted in story. It's not like his chase and apparent invincibility came out of nowhere.

[kuronosan]

Imagine if Achilles never actually did anything but was hyped up to be an amazing warrior. Now imagine if the one fight he does get it's revealed that all he can do is push someone and it kils them instantly. He can't run or dodge or anything just slowly walk up and push people, and when he goes to push the person he is fighting he misses and falls off a cliff and dies. That's Barragan.

Imagine if your favorite epic poem of all time, the Iliad, is going to be made into a movie. Then imagine that it's being hyped up to fit a 3 hour block of time and will feature some of the most brutal action sequences ever in an epic movie. Then, when you see the trailer, you see that Achilles is going to be portrayed by Brad Pitt and Eric Bana will be Hector as well as Peter O'Toole as Priam and Brian Cox as Agamemnon. Then when you go to see the movie you find out it is loosely based on the Iliad and even includes other stories that weren't even part of it and that there are no Gods depicted in the movie. That's Bleach.

Look, the idea is that all villains and heroes have critical weaknesses that, while they may seem really stupid, are genuine weaknesses and character flaws. Barragan's arrogance, coupled with his royalty and pride, led him to believe all he needed was his respira to beat anyone. He even bragged about kido not having an effect either. He was so arrogant that he didn't even think that they could rot him from the inside out.

I can find plenty of villains that seemed impossibly strong and had an Achilles' Heel moment:

Jafar became a genie yet forgot it meant he had to be trapped for all eternity in a lamp. Clever weakness. He wasn't a weakling.

Arroniero was wiping the floor with Rukia and stupidly brought her in to gloat while she plotkai'd another move to defeat him. He wasn't a weakling, but he was pretty dumb.

Hell, Achilles is the perfect example of Barragan. A seemingly unstoppable force who was near invincible to every form of attack except that one spot no one thought to attack that turned out to be his downfall.

Let's not forget Clubber Lang in Rocky... He knocked the shit out of him in the second round of the movie. When they rematched Rocky won because of Clubber's weakness - he goes for the knockout quickly... which works against opponents who can't take his hits... but he uses a lot of energy. Rocky waited for him to use it up and then he won the fight. Clubber wasn't a weakling.

There's a huge difference between a weakling and just somebody who doesn't have a tab on their own weaknesses because of arrogance. Barragan falls into the latter category.

Ichigo is the best example