Bleach

[Siniroth]

Right, slow progression... I'm just curious I don't think she'll be all powerful (though you never know what the fuck he's planning) but I get all intrigued about the words 'Genocide Mode' and little girls giving mechanical dialogue and surprisingly effective attacks, she was fucking choking the Arrancar.

Did anyone ever determine the thing with 0-9 and 1-10 for the Espada? I believe someone mentioned it was said somewhere there was just ten, not told what their numbers were but...

Spoiler: show

http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/000...0107802/04.jpg

I suppose he could've just not been aware about Yammy though

[Souj]

or the shadow could have been used for no reason whatsoever or just because he was 1 of the few arrancar weve seen thus far. You guys focus way to much on things that do not matter.

Vasto lords were suppose to have powers on par with captains. Thus proving not a single espada was a vasto lord. end discussion.

He gives a statement that's completely wrong, and ends it with "end discussion" and all he gets is a half sentence correcting him?
for shame BG, for shame.
If we are to believe the manga, and I quote; the strength of a single Vasto lord is above that of any captain."
he goes on to say, including Aizen, 10 VLs would be enough to make SS doomed.

Thus proving not a single espada was a vasto lord. end discussion.

Now, for the sake of the argument, lets run with your original argument that a VL = Captain power. if their strengths are near the same, someone has to win due to some circumstance. will power, luck, stategy, etc etc the list goes on. one of those reasons would push the winner ahead. Your statement was of course wrong tho, so there's no point in continuing here.

Now lets say Ulquiorra, Halibel, Barrigan and Stark are indeed VL. (I for one don;t know and wont try to guess). A VL's power is greater than a captains. Since they all lost, they couldnt possibly be VLs right? if that's the case, could you tell me which of these 4 lost to a single captain level shinigami?



Sorry, I was bored and that post just stood out so much to me.

[Siniroth]

Well I already pointed out that it was just a generic image and he did admit it had been a while so I don't really why know why you're pressing that matter

[BadKarma]

Halibel didnt really lose, Ulquiorra got molested by what is probably the only real Vasto Lorde, unless Kubo pulls a Kubo and does some serious trolling.




Also inb4 Grimjoww pulls a Vegeta and facerapes Yammy as he turns the tide on Kenpachi and Byakuya

[Souj]

wait, if Grimmjaw did a Vegeta, wouldnt he fight against Yammi and then die? Then get resurrected by the super amazing magic "make anything happen" plot device?
Unless Yammi is captain Ginyu. Then Grimmjeta stays out of this fight, and later, while Ichigoku is training for his Super Siavizard, Grimmjeta saves Ishohan and Charillin from thus far unnamed Vastro Lorieza, buying Ichigoku enough time to save his friends, but has to watch Grimmjeta die?

[altwight]

He gives a statement that's completely wrong, and ends it with "end discussion" and all he gets is a half sentence correcting him?
for shame BG, for shame.
If we are to believe the manga, and I quote; the strength of a single Vasto lord is above that of any captain."
he goes on to say, including Aizen, 10 VLs would be enough to make SS doomed.


Now, for the sake of the argument, lets run with your original argument that a VL = Captain power. if their strengths are near the same, someone has to win due to some circumstance. will power, luck, stategy, etc etc the list goes on. one of those reasons would push the winner ahead. Your statement was of course wrong tho, so there's no point in continuing here.

Now lets say Ulquiorra, Halibel, Barrigan and Stark are indeed VL. (I for one don;t know and wont try to guess). A VL's power is greater than a captains. Since they all lost, they couldnt possibly be VLs right? if that's the case, could you tell me which of these 4 lost to a single captain level shinigami?

hmm... Halibel 1shot'd by a captain, stark 1shot'd by a captain. Barrigan needed help because Soi Fon isn't a captain she's a tool. Ulquiorra would be the only espada I consider a vasto lorde (for the sake of arguing) because Soul Society determines Ichigo's strength on 'par' with a captain and ichigo's strength alone wasn't enough to defeat Ulquiorra thus meaning Ulquiorra was stronger than a captain. Though he's the only one.

edit: Though after looking at the Vasto Lorde pic I would say Ulquiorra is only half as strong as VL because Ulquiorra's little mask thing is half that of the image displayed as a Vasto Lorde! Omg see wut i did thur?

[Thoronas]

wait, if Grimmjaw did a Vegeta, wouldnt he fight against Yammi and then die? Then get resurrected by the super amazing magic "make anything happen" plot device?
Unless Yammi is captain Ginyu. Then Grimmjeta stays out of this fight, and later, while Ichigoku is training for his Super Siavizard, Grimmjeta saves Ishohan and Charillin from thus far unnamed Vastro Lorieza, buying Ichigoku enough time to save his friends, but has to watch Grimmjeta die?

fuckin lol

[Elondir]

Wasn't the quote "a single Vasto Lorde has strength greater than that of an average Captain"? I always took that as VLs being stronger than the crappy captains like Hitsu, Soi Fon and Komamura, but still unable to take Shunsui, Uki and Yama.

However, add to that Shinigamification and a VL should be raping the face of any captain.

Unless it just plain doesn't work that way; SS has over-estimated the VLs; the captains have raised the bar since that comment was made; or Kubo doesn't remember what he writes and spends more time eating his pencils than writing the story.

[Souj]

hmm... Halibel 1shot'd by a captain, stark 1shot'd by a captain.

you need to redefine your definition of "1 shotted"
and aizen killing Halibel doesn't count at all, Because it was a surprise attack and we have no idea how to compare Aizens strength.


anyways; this:

Unless it just plain doesn't work that way; SS has over-estimated the VLs; the captains have raised the bar since that comment was made; or Kubo doesn't remember what he writes and spends more time eating his pencils than writing the story.

as much as I would like to answer your next unthought out remark Altwight, I think i'll just leave it at that.

[Siniroth]

hmm... Halibel 1shot'd by a captain, stark 1shot'd by a captain. Barrigan needed help because Soi Fon isn't a captain she's a tool. Ulquiorra would be the only espada I consider a vasto lorde (for the sake of arguing) because Soul Society determines Ichigo's strength on 'par' with a captain and ichigo's strength alone wasn't enough to defeat Ulquiorra thus meaning Ulquiorra was stronger than a captain. Though he's the only one.

Because just because they're stronger means they can never ever be beaten... the main basis of pretty much any storyline ever involving a bad guy who's stronger than the main character + pals clearly doesn't apply to Bleach, nowai

[NotGreyheim]

hmm... Halibel 1shot'd by a captain, stark 1shot'd by a captain. Barrigan needed help because Soi Fon isn't a captain she's a tool

Halibel: Killed by Aizen (yes, a former captain, but who knows what the fuck power level he apparently has since he can control the Espada) after facing 3 OTHER opponents

Stark: Fought 4 opponents total (in groups of 2) before Kyoraku got his POWAH-UP and had his way with him

Barrigan: Killed by his own power, not that of a captain/captain level opponent. Hachi hax~

"hmm" indeed...

[altwight]

Guess Ichigo must be like forever times stronger than all the captains since he fought them all before beating byakuya!

Damn I was hoping it wasn't true.

[Siniroth]

You're misconstruing 'stronger', it does not automatically equate to 'will win'

[Furoris]

I would say it is fair enough to group the captains in an even High, medium, and low.
High
Yamamoto, Shunsui, Unohana

medium
Byakuya, Kenpachi, Mayuri

Low
Soifon, Toshiro, Komamura
note: Ukitaki left out due to him being high when not coughing up a lung and low when he is.

Tangential argument to justify this distribution:

Spoiler: show

I agree Kenpachi could be listed in the high group if he actually took fights seriously, but he doesn't and it is an inherent personality flaw that lowers his combat ability from his theoretical max. Also as stated before recently I agree captains can improve themselves and experience plays a large role. Toshiro might be the reincartaion of some spirit, and be a genius but he is still inexperienced, Byakuya is more experienced then Toshiro but still no where near experienced as Yamamoto, Shunsui and Unohana

I would say that all the espada 1-4 definitely had better "combat ability' then an average captain, with that and given the various back-stories showing human like appearances before Aizen arrived, the rule about 4+ not releasing in Las Noches, and that it took group efforts in general to defeat Baraggan and Stark, I conclude that 1-4 were Vasto Lords until Kubo states otherwise

As for Yammy I put him in the same class as Aaroniero Arruruerie in that they are a lesser hollow with unique abilities that allow for infinite growth; AA was a gillian could absorb any spirit and directly gain their power and experience, and Yammy which I assume is an adjuchas who's power is to act like a reiatsu capacitor. Unless we get trolled I'm expecting Yammy to be just have heavy hitting attacks and high defense, and not have much in the way of "combat ability".

edit: wtf 200th post, I think I've been hanging around this forum to long... lol

[Draggy]

I just think you're all reading waaaay too much into things when you know the author forgets half his own stuff and randomly changes stuff as he pleases

[Furoris]

I just think you're all reading waaaay too much into things when you know the author forgets half his own stuff and randomly changes stuff as he pleases

Most likely this, I was bored and felt like writing a rationally justified argument.

[Sho]

Wasn't the quote "a single Vasto Lorde has strength greater than that of an average Captain"? I always took that as VLs being stronger than the crappy captains like Hitsu, Soi Fon and Komamura, but still unable to take Shunsui, Uki and Yama.

However, add to that Shinigamification and a VL should be raping the face of any captain.

Unless it just plain doesn't work that way; SS has over-estimated the VLs; the captains have raised the bar since that comment was made; or Kubo doesn't remember what he writes and spends more time eating his pencils than writing the story.

This is what happened. It's simple really.

[kuronosan]

Why the hell is this even up for discussion? Seriously? End discussion?

The fact that the Espada were trounced by the captains does not mean they weren't Vasto Lorde. That's an absolutely retarded conclusion to jump to.

This is all we know:

a) Top 4 Espada were really strong.
b) Yammy is apparently the strongest.
c) Barragan defeated himself, Starrk was cheap-shotted by Shunsui, Halibel was taken down by Aizen, and Ulquiorra made mince-meat of Ichigo before being beaten to death by his inner hollow.
d) Ulquiorra resembled a Vasto Lorde silhouette.
e) Hitsugaya stated that the non-arrancarized VL are on par in fighting ability with your average captain.
f) Hitsugaya then states if Aizen had around 10 arrancarized VL on his side, Soul Society would be doomed.
g) We know that the lower 4 Espada were Adjuchas class, with Kaien-thingy being the only remaining Gillian.

That is all we know. To assume anything else is to completely ignore the fallacy that is a Bleach plotline.

It could be that the captains just overestimated how strong they were (thanks to Kubo sucking their collective dicks and ignoring his main character) or it could be that the stronger Vasto Lorde (such as Wonderweiss) have yet to be revealed as such.

Speculation otherwise is just retarded.

edit: Just thought I'd add that the English VA for Ulquiorra is just fucking awesome.

[altwight]

Speculation is speculation. end discussion

[Souj]

When you state things as fact and use words like "proof", that's not speculation. that's you being retarded.