Bleach

**Insanecyclone** · 2012-05-31 09:46

Yes we know Kubo sucks, but we like it to see what the hell is going to happen next.

**kuronosan** · 2012-05-31 09:59

Oh I know. It's like a sad addiction for me too. Someone has to bitch and I guess it has to be me. Because I'm the hero asshole Kubo deserves, but not the one he needs.

**blindSharingan** · 2012-05-31 12:58

Kubo is a good artist and all but It sometimes cracks me up how much Kubo's characters can look so similar.

Spoiler: show

**Insanecyclone** · 2012-05-31 13:50

Originally Posted by kuronosan

Oh I know. It's like a sad addiction for me too. Someone has to bitch and I guess it has to be me. Because I'm the hero asshole Kubo deserves, but not the one he needs.

Bitching is good. It's just that you're the only one doing it all the time lol

**Xno Kappa** · 2012-05-31 13:51

When was it ever stated the first VC was groomed to be the next Captain Commander? Was it during his funeral ceremony?

**KCem** · 2012-05-31 13:52

I don't believe it ever was. I always got the impression that Hitsugaya was being groomed to eventually take the job.

**Odin'sLaw** · 2012-05-31 14:06

Originally Posted by KCem

I don't believe it ever was. I always got the impression that Hitsugaya was being groomed to eventually take the job.

i thought he was just been groomed by Matso~

**Outlaw** · 2012-05-31 21:30

Originally Posted by kuronosan

4) I will admit this arc is interesting but it's already going in the wrong direction. When I say "bitchers gonna bitch" it's because, well, look - In order to put the Quincies over as a threat Kubo is just having them mow down everyone you currently know to be strong just so he can get to the Royal Guard. This is retarded. It isn't because the Quincy can't genuinely be strong. You already saw what an immature Ishida was able to do to Mayuri. It's because there's no build-up. In typical Kubo fashion he's pandering yet again and rather than acknowledge that his storytelling is shit you choose to go "lol you can't please anyone you ask him to kill someone he does and you complain so he stops killing people and you say he doesn't kill people enough". No. No. No. That's not what this is about at all. It's about:

I thought the battle with the Quincy (can't remember his name) in Hueco Mundo was suppose to be the build up. He's owned Ichigo and friends so far and it's safe to say he's probably not as strong as the Quincy that have shown up in SS. Like saying: "Look how strong their mid level soldiers are so you know the good guys are in trouble."

5) Context. When people say "You always make the shinigami win" they don't mean "Next arc make all the fucking shinigami lose at once to the new guys and have them all die". They mean "You really ought to make the battles more meaningful and have both sides lose people we care about". That's assuming you care about any of the one-dimensional people he kills, like the 1st VC. And no, fleshing them out after they're dead doesn't fucking make them important. It makes them cheap. It means he couldn't think of anything to do with them so he gives them a bullshit backstory after the fact in an effort to make you care about a character you won't even see anymore. When people say "Fuck sake no one ever dies" they don't mean "Kill off this guy right here", they mean "There's nothing to be lost or gain in any of these fights because the result is always the same - nothing is at stake". There's no tension. There's nothing to be lost. So instead of putting something truly at stake and making you think something might go wrong and the heroes might actually lose, Kubo chooses to make it so that either everybody wins (Aizen arc) or everyone loses (current arc).

I don't entirely disagree with this. I really don't want him to kill off characters we care about though. Like Kira or Momo. Yes! I like her so sue me.

**Tajin** · 2012-05-31 21:37

Popular character lol. Kenpachi is popular. Hinamori is meme popular.
Waaaay back when Ichigo's friends/sisters had the spotlight and where are they now?

**Sho** · 2012-05-31 23:05

Originally Posted by kuronosan

Oh I know. It's like a sad addiction for me too. Someone has to bitch and I guess it has to be me. Because I'm the hero asshole Kubo deserves, but not the one he needs.

So glad Kubo is writing the story and not you.

He [Kubo] really hasn't done anything wrong so far in this story arc or the last.

I could go down your previous post and pick apart everything wrong with it:

Originally Posted by kuronosan

I'm not at all worried about the Quincy being strong. I'm over that much already and I accept that it's not really a retcon. Here's some problems with the recent developments:

1) Just because you name a character doesn't make them important nor does it make their death more meaningful. "Writing a personality" is a bullshit cover for "Tried to make them seem important when they aren't". It's really nice that he's taking the time to "flesh out" these "important people" who are really nothing more than cannon fodder. Take the 1st VC, for example. He jobs once, gets a panel in the last arc, then suddenly he's a bad-ass with Bankai and was groomed to be the next Captain Commander. Really? Could have fooled all of us when he was punched out by Ichigo using his bare hands. Yet everyone accepts it and says "Yea well Kubo just never told you about it". You know what? Fuck you. That's what.

You totally missed the premise for Kubo fleshing out this character upon his death. Kubo didn't do it to make the character seem more important than what he was, he did it so that the reader could see how grievous the situation is and the gigantic threat the new enemy poses. What better character to use than the Captain General's Lieutenant? How you missed this is beyond me. Kubo also wrote within the lines of the character without making it an obvious retcon-- the guy got one shotted indeed vs Ichigo, but he was also "holding back". I mean, at least give some credit to the dude being with the Captain General for hundreds of years...

2) Just because you have new people come in and blow a hole in someone who had a moment in the last arc doesn't make them awesome. Remember when Grimmjow came and put a hole through Rukia? No? How about when Allon turned Rangiku's tits into Shinigami sushi? Possibly? Or how Komamura's VC was blasted into pieces? Or how the captains had to release their limiters just to stand a chance against Grimmjow's fraccion? You know, the problem with Kubo's storytelling is that he comes up with one clever thing and everyone collectively goes "HOLY FUCK HE'S SUCH A GENIUS". No he isn't. He's a fucking tool. His writing is cliche and he recycles the same fucking panel every two chapters. It's not artistic. It's boring.

I'll give you that on the random hole-blowing, bifurcations. However I will say this, never in Kubo's drawings of bifurcations have I seen a person cough/spit up blood and roll their eyes in the back of their head. It's always some stupid look of shock as they get lanced. And I've never seen anyone go "HOLY FUCK HE'S SUCH A GENIUS" in a long long time, stop over exaggerating. In fact, I haven't seen such a reaction in Bleach since Aizen being revealed as the mastermind behind the Rescue Rukia Arc. Never have, never will again. Also, he's not there to write a manga for us adults and pre-adults. This manga is targeted for 8~16 year olds-- he can use the same cliche'd and recycled panels as much as he wants, just like any other shounen mangaka does.

3) Predictability. It's fucking sad when your readers know what will happen before you've even written it. Even sadder is when your readers say what will happen and you actually DO it.

Will say this again, the target audience is much different and cliches will always be used over and over. Who cares, people still [secretly] enjoy reading the story and then enjoy it more when it's animated. Funny how that works.

4) I will admit this arc is interesting but it's already going in the wrong direction. When I say "bitchers gonna bitch" it's because, well, look - In order to put the Quincies over as a threat Kubo is just having them mow down everyone you currently know to be strong just so he can get to the Royal Guard. This is retarded. It isn't because the Quincy can't genuinely be strong. You already saw what an immature Ishida was able to do to Mayuri. It's because there's no build-up. In typical Kubo fashion he's pandering yet again and rather than acknowledge that his storytelling is shit you choose to go "lol you can't please anyone you ask him to kill someone he does and you complain so he stops killing people and you say he doesn't kill people enough". No. No. No. That's not what this is about at all. It's about:

The arc IS interesting and it's NOT going in the wrong direction. However, you want it to go in the "wrong direction" so you can continue bitching about how Kubo keeps fucking up for whatever imagined reason you can think of. This plotline is very obvious to anyone who can see it. It also shows that Kubo gave it a very long thought before going through with it-- you can tell he's actually went back and read all of his previous work to tie together plotlines and fill in plotholes. This is Kubo's "Grand Finale," he wants to go out on a big "Shinigami vs Quincy War" story in which mass loss of life [actually] happens (of course this is war we are talking about, where mass loss of life *should* happen). What build up were you looking for? The good guys are already getting pwned by low level soldiers, making Aizen's invasion look like utter shit in comparison... what more do you want for "build up"?

5) Context. When people say "You always make the shinigami win" they don't mean "Next arc make all the fucking shinigami lose at once to the new guys and have them all die". They mean "You really ought to make the battles more meaningful and have both sides lose people we care about". That's assuming you care about any of the one-dimensional people he kills, like the 1st VC. And no, fleshing them out after they're dead doesn't fucking make them important. It makes them cheap. It means he couldn't think of anything to do with them so he gives them a bullshit backstory after the fact in an effort to make you care about a character you won't even see anymore. When people say "Fuck sake no one ever dies" they don't mean "Kill off this guy right here", they mean "There's nothing to be lost or gain in any of these fights because the result is always the same - nothing is at stake". There's no tension. There's nothing to be lost. So instead of putting something truly at stake and making you think something might go wrong and the heroes might actually lose, Kubo chooses to make it so that either everybody wins (Aizen arc) or everyone loses (current arc).

There is nothing at stake in this battle. You know that in order to make the Quincy seem awesome Kubo is going to have random people beaten/killed/maimed so that when Ichigo and friends get to SS they're all mad and have to find a way to the Royal Realm to save the day. There's nothing wrong with that if it's written correctly. It isn't. That's why it's stupid.

Once again you missed the entire premise as to why the 1st's VC was giving a back story; it's explained above.

Lastly, I do enjoy Bleach's story. What I don't enjoy is people trying to claim Kubo is a competent, consistent, talented writer when he's not. Could I draw and write a better story? Who the fuck knows? There's only so much belief your brain can suspend before you go "Okay, this is just fucking stupid". My brain's hit that point and by no means does that mean I'm just some stupid whiny bitching jerk-off. It just means this story has lost its shine to me and has passed the point of believably decent content. That doesn't mean you're a fucking tart-wad for continuing to read it. It just means we have a difference of opinion.

That being said, my opinion still is that he's a fucking horrible writer and just because he churns out a decent chapter every once in a while will awesome panels doesn't change that at all. President Bush did some nice meaningful stuff during his 8-year disaster run but that doesn't mean he's not a fucking retard.

Most of us have since given up on Kubo being a great writer, but instead a great artist with a typical shounen like story that's at least decent to read and follow. I honestly believe you are like most people who complain-- you want to have one's cake and eat it too when it comes to reading Bleach. If you hated it so much, you would have simply stopped chatting about it like a number of people have (like Souj, Haiku).

**Yugl** · 2012-05-31 23:57

I completely agree with Sho on that rant. The other issue to remember is that bankai isn't necessarily indicative of strength. Kenpachi fought the blind dude and the fox at the same time. Both had bankai. Kenpachi was on par with Ichigo's shikai.

**Tymon** · 2012-06-01 00:35

Originally Posted by Yugl

I completely agree with Sho on that rant. The other issue to remember is that bankai isn't necessarily indicative of strength. Kenpachi fought the blind dude and the fox at the same time. Both had bankai. Kenpachi was on par with Ichigo's shikai.

No.

Ichigo beat Kenpachi because Zangetsu let him use 110% of his reiatsu at once.

He was stronger than he was in bankai against Byakuya there, probably.

**KCem** · 2012-06-01 01:26

Kenpachi vs Ichigo ended with a reiatsu head butting contest, which Ichigo won by multiplying his reiatsu through Zangetsu, I wouldn't call it a show of actual strength, since Kenpachi regularly demonstrates a huge pain tolerance and ability to fight while injured. The whole SS arc served to bring Ichigo up to captain tier in progressive steps, defeating Kenpachi was a necessary step to show mastery of his shikai. If we took those strength levels at face value, then most captains should have been raped by the espada, considering how much trouble Ichigo had against Grimmjow.

**Yugl** · 2012-06-01 02:24

I only watch this stuff and move on, so I'll take your word on the details. Why don't they use that technique in each fight though? Is there a drawback like Kaioken (Or w/e that move was called)? As for your last bit, even though I was misinformed about the details of their duel, it seems to make the point in another manner anyways. Namely, that you cannot use the old SS arc to gauge fighting power it seems.

**kuronosan** · 2012-06-01 09:02

No, there isn't.

As far as the rant, you do have some good points Sho. Obviously some moments I was exaggerating, but the idea of the 1st VC was this:

It's okay to use him as a plot point to drive the other characters. It's a retcon to say he was OMGSOPOWERFUL just to put him over. It'd be like Renji's little friend you never see anymore (you know, the one who copied his tattoos) suddenly being an undercover captain from the Royal Guard. YOU NEVER KNEW SO IT STILL IS OKAY. No. Just... no.

I didn't miss what was going on in that chapter at all. I know full well they were trying to illustrate how dangerous the situation really was. It didn't work. Well, it didn't work for me. Having a guy fly in from off-screen impaled by a Bankai NOBODY KNEW HE HAD (well, until Byakuya said he had it) and die after two lines doesn't make the situation dangerous. If Kubo really wanted to make it dangerous, he would have had somebody you KNEW was tough before it happened fly in and die like "holy crap, that guy was really god damn strong and the Quincy just dropped him in 3 seconds".

No, I'm not writing the manga. Sue me for not being talented at everything at the same time. I do know what sounds plausible and what works, and being a musician this is akin to using auto-tune in a song. Sure, for some people it's artistic and great. When it's overused, it's terrible and ruins the setting. This is the same thing here.

Maybe it's because I've grown past this whole "shonen-manga" thing and I just want to see how it ends. That's probably what it is. If my occasional complaining ruins it for you guys, I'm sorry.

As far as him being the next CC, read these pages:

http://www.mangareader.net/bleach/486/6
http://www.mangareader.net/bleach/486/7

It's heavily implied by Byakuya's dialog that he turned down opportunities to become 1st division Captain because of his loyalty to Yamamoto and that he would only ascend to a higher position when Yama was dead. That can be taken either as "I won't be a captain because I want to serve you" or "When you die, because I apparently am stronger than Ukitake and Shunsui but didn't fucking fight Aizen with the rest of you I will take over".

It's not explicitly stated.

**Eurell** · 2012-06-01 09:15

How does that imply he was going to be CC? It said captains change, but he wanted to serve under Yamamoto. It doesnt imply that he is stronger than other captains at all, simply that he had a bankai, meaning he had potential to be a captain if he pursued it.

**Xno Kappa** · 2012-06-01 11:48

I always saw the VC as the de facto first division Captain anyways. Yamamoto being captain of the first division always seemed silly as shit to me. It's akin to a platoon sergeant being one of the squad leaders in his own platoon.

**Yugl** · 2012-06-01 16:30

What's strictly said in those pages is that there were opportunities to have captain authority (Authority of the captain without being the captain) and opportunities to be substitute captain (It's unclear whether this is temporary or permanent, but given the notion of substitute shinigami, it's likely that we're talking about a temporary position). He accepted neither of these opportunities. According to heresy, he didn't take part in battles. He also never used his ability (Unsure if this means Shikai) in front of others and never used his Bankai. Quite frankly, given these circumstances, I'm wondering if we'll see a second Aizen in the works. If you never see his bankai, you don't know whether the events in question are related to his doing. Not to mention, proximity to the captain is perfect for information gathering.

**Cleverness** · 2012-06-01 16:49

I dunno why people keep bringing up the Ichigo Shikai vs Kenpachi thing, i've seen it brought up so often over the years in various forms to discredit Kenpachi's strength. Ichigo getting a major power boost through channeling his power through the sword does not mean Kenpachi is at shikai strength, it means Ichigo got some momentary random BS plot powerup for the sake of him "winning" the fight(was more like a tie) at that moment because Kubo wanted to move the story along, and there wasn't anything else he could use given the short time between this fight + the Renji fight without spoiling the Hollow mask reveal in the upcoming Byakuya fight. And unlike Ichigo's Hollow transformation this specific powerup is really never visited again for any character to my knowledge(someone like Rukia who is/was limited to Shikai transformation could certainly had made use of this, same for alot of other people who have had connections to their swords for way longer than Ichigo has).

Kenpachi wasn't weak, Ichigo just got a random plot boost for the sake of story progression to tie the fight.

**arus2001** · 2012-06-02 04:00

Actually, I'd say the fight emphasized his control on spirit energy and how he couldn't cut Kenpachi initially. Pair that with him being all "open faucet" as earlier described and in the brief moment of the two just unloading, he "won" if you want to call it that, as while now aware of his hypothetical bazooka, he'd still need to refine it beyond desperation tactics... as emphasized by Yoruichi pulling him away for bankai training.

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