Bleach

**Odesseiron** · 2012-12-05 19:12

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=bleach+inconsistencies

Also; mfw srs business over Bleach. Whoooooosh.

**Souj** · 2012-12-05 19:18

So since the only thing you seem to be pointing out is that there are "power level inconsistencies" in a shonen, I'm going to assume you have nothing. Aided by the fact that you resort to the typical why so serious canned response

**Odesseiron** · 2012-12-05 19:19

Umm.. sure? Unless you ignore the pages and pages of threads. But carry on about your business. I'll leave you to your theories.

**Souj** · 2012-12-05 19:20

please do

**Insanecyclone** · 2012-12-05 19:31

It would be hard for me to remember shit that happen years ago in a 500+ chapter manga.

**Xno Kappa** · 2012-12-05 19:39

People work fucking fast lmao.

**arus2001** · 2012-12-05 19:39

inb4thepeach

**Gredival** · 2012-12-05 19:43

Originally Posted by Souj

mythology shit

Spoiler: show

Second version is more like the original Chinese iirc. Center represents the void.

Originally Posted by Souj

Can you name one thing his apparently amnesiatic forgetfulness has caused a plot hole or inconstancy in? And no, taking the plot in a bad direction does not count.

Clearest problem imo was the question asked a few pages back about Kenpachi's power level. Ichigo takes him down no Bankai, eyepatch off, at a point where he should be nowhere near Captain's level and would lose to Byakuya. Kenpachi is subsequently able to take on two Captains who are activating Bankai right after.

Most ascribe to the lolKubo explanation or the theory he matches his level downwards. However the plot indicated that Kenpachi lost because he wasn't in tune with his sword which makes him weaker... yet he can still face roll everyone else who are arguably stronger than Ichigo.

I know you can argue that their Bankai abilities make them interact in weird ways such that power levels are unreliable (Kenpachi is the perfect counter to Suzumushi because he can take swings and just grab someone; Ichigo already has pure brute strength when he faces Kenpachi because his Bankai is compression not expansion) but I think that those are a little too far of stretches. Ichigo had just struggled to fight Renji, do you really think Kenpachi is interested in adjusting his power level down to fight someone that far beneath him?

Espada 0 was probably something he pulled out of his ass to close a plot hole, which was silly when he just off-screened Yami.

I don't understand why Kugo is interested at all in being a good little boy in Soul Society when he was pretty bastardy before he died. And I think he probably should have gone to hell given he murdered Shinigami (and Tsukishima has "mentally broken" people with his Fullbring)

**Xno Kappa** · 2012-12-05 21:13

The Dragonball Z way of judging power is outdated, boring, and pointless. Bleach has done a terrific job of displaying that it's styles, not raw power, that decides fights. No different than in the real world of combat sports. Some of you just can't get off wondering what a scouter would say.

And we've had only one or two panels of the Fullbringers in Soul Society only a chapter ago. Give the story a chance to explain their roles. As far as thinking Kugo should've gone to hell, that's silly as shit. The dude did everything with the sole purpose of protecting the Fullbringers, whom we can only assume would've ended up with the Quincy treatment from Soul Society seeing as how any power that's taboo is frowned upon. He wasn't some serial killer who was outright evil. They literally walked away when they were done with Ichigo.

**Ragnus** · 2012-12-05 21:19

Originally Posted by Hirokei Kiaza

The Dragonball Z way of judging power is outdated, boring, and pointless. Bleach has done a terrific job of displaying that it's styles, not raw power, that decides fights. No different than in the real world of combat sports. Some of you just can't get off wondering what a scouter would say.

And we've had only one or two panels of the Fullbringers in Soul Society only a chapter ago. Give the story a chance to explain their roles. As far as thinking Kugo should've gone to hell, that's silly as shit. The dude did everything with the sole purpose of protecting the Fullbringers, whom we can only assume would've ended up with the Quincy treatment from Soul Society seeing as how any power that's taboo is frowned upon. He wasn't some serial killer who was outright evil. They literally walked away when they were done with Ichigo.

DBZ even got sick of it around the Cell Arc where they introduced the notion of pumping power level to the point of hulking out looks impressive to senses / scouters but sucks in practice because you're slow as shit.

**Insanecyclone** · 2012-12-05 21:19

Originally Posted by Hirokei Kiaza

People work fucking fast lmao.

you don't even know man

Spoiler: show

**Souj** · 2012-12-05 21:27

peaches can be pretty furry

**Gredival** · 2012-12-05 22:05

Originally Posted by Hirokei Kiaza

The Dragonball Z way of judging power is outdated, boring, and pointless. Bleach has done a terrific job of displaying that it's styles, not raw power, that decides fights. No different than in the real world of combat sports. Some of you just can't get off wondering what a scouter would say.

And I directly addressed that and still said that regardless of taking that into account, this was a definite lapse.

Ichigo fights Kenpachi to a stand-still pre-Bankai. For the purposes of this argument, let's assume the strongest possible form of Ichigo (since that makes the draw most understandable), meaning his Bankai grants only speed through compression and not any additional power. This was a brute force battle with no real style, which ends with both of them using a super special awesome "full power" one swing attack. Take it for granted that Kenpachi was holding back physical strength (though he unleashed all his reiatsu) since he swung with only one arm. Kenpachi basically draws with Ichigo at this point.

However Ichigo barely made it past no-Bankai Renji (also through basic brute force) right before Kenpachi. This should lead you to believe no-Bankai Renji isn't that much weaker than Ichigo, and by transitive property because there's no accounting style difference, Kenpachi. But it is pretty apparent modern Kenpachi would have no problems cruising through no-Bankai Renji, even with one hand and eyepatch restrictions. Bankai Renji, even with his limiter removed, comments he might not have survived battling Grimmjow's Taurus Fraccion had it not been for the element of surprise from having his limiter removed suddenly. Kenpachi has cut through the hierro of much stronger Espada effortlessly.

Fast forward, Ichigo gets his ass kicked by Grimmjow repeatedly and needs a massive power-up in the form of a Vaizard mask and training before he can beat Grimmjow. Comparatively Kenpachi easily takes on Noitora. He only starts to lose when number of strikes from the regenerating preying Mantis arms take a blood loss toll on him. But at that point he just two-hand wields and mows him down. Pre-Bankai Ichigo and Kenpachi supposedly drew in a flat power contest. But Ichigo required a Vaizard powerup to fight evenly with Grimmjow, while Kenpachi didn't need anything to fight Noitora.

You could argue Kenpachi would have ultimately lost against Noitora without breaking out the two-hands, but that be a loss directly attributable to what you were talking about: style. Infinite regeneration counters Kenpachi unless he deals a strong enough blow to override it. But speaking in terms of sheer hitting power, Kenpachi is already strong enough to deal otherwise mortal wounds to Noitora (one-handed, no eyepatch) while Ichigo needs a power-up to fight a lower ranked Grimmjow. That doesn't correspond with them having equal power in the Rukia arc.

You're right that style has accounted for many other victories. For example, Senbonzakura Kageyoshi was the perfect counter for Mind-Control Eyes. In turn, Ichigo beat Byakuya because his speed allowed him to defeat the sheer number power of Senbonzakura and penetrate the no-kill zone before Byakuya could react. However all those fights above can't be attributed to style. Grimmjow and Noitora both are physical attack fighters based on hunting predators with straight forward offensive styles. Ichigo beat Renji and Kenpachi in pure brawn power.

So the baseline is that one-arm full strength Kenpachi = Ichigo at full strength can't be right. You basically have to believe that Kenpachi was holding back (contrary to his explicit dialogue), or that he got an invisible power up somewhere.

I don't see why you have to insistently believe Kubo didn't make a mistake here, especially since it's likely a result of him only pre-planning to the end of the Rukia arc.

As far as thinking Kugo should've gone to hell, that's silly as shit. The dude did everything with the sole purpose of protecting the Fullbringers, whom we can only assume would've ended up with the Quincy treatment from Soul Society seeing as how any power that's taboo is frowned upon. He wasn't some serial killer who was outright evil. They literally walked away when they were done with Ichigo.

Soi-Fon indicated that Kugo killed numerous Shinigami. Since he goes to Soul Society after Ichigo axes him off, he was initially alive. This would have been a mortal sin in life not cleansed by Zanpaktou death.

And Tsukishima has made people go insane from his fullbring. You don't think that's evil?

**Souj** · 2012-12-05 22:09

That's way to much text to read.

**Gredival** · 2012-12-05 22:11

Originally Posted by Souj

That's way to much text to read.

TL;DR Kenpachi vs. Ichigo tying is a plothole, there is no justifiable interpretation otherwise regardless of "battle style." Kenpachi would have mowed Ichigo down unless Kenpachi was holding back, or he got an invisible power-up equivalent or greater to a Vaizard mask between Rescue Rukia and Rescue Orihime.

Kubo made a mistake. That's not denying the obvious appeal since we are all still following the manga, it's acknowledging he didn't plan all the way past Soul Society very well.

**Tajin** · 2012-12-05 22:17

Just... stop please.

**Correction** · 2012-12-05 22:43

Originally Posted by Gredival

And I directly addressed that and still said that regardless of taking that into account, this was a definite lapse.

And Tsukishima has made people go insane from his fullbring. You don't think that's evil?

All I could see.

**Xno Kappa** · 2012-12-05 22:50

Zangetsu literally says he'd help Ichigo in the battle by giving him access to his full power. It's flat-out stated Ichigo possesses a fountain of reiatsu since the beginning of the manga that he wasn't able to fully control until Aizen. By the time he has his battle with Kenpachi, Shirosaki has also already begun to manifest himself in Ichigo by protecting him from fatal blows with masks. The battle also ended in a draw, not the blow-out magical power up you keep suggesting it to be.

What is there not to understand?

**Guitarman** · 2012-12-05 22:53

Wasn't it stated at some point that Zaraki matches his opponent's level to have more fun? I always assumed that was the case in that fight.

**Karbuncle** · 2012-12-05 22:55

Originally Posted by Guitarman

Wasn't it stated at some point that Zaraki matches his opponent's level to have more fun? I always assumed that was the case in that fight.

This is what I thought too. Also, The idea that Zangetsu temporarily gives Ichigo the power to defeat Kenpachi is how i took it too, Since it was stated he was giving him the power.

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