Bleach

**fantasticdan** · 2013-04-21 01:42

Originally Posted by Sho

Well now, that answers why Ichigo has the mask manifestations prior to becoming a Visored.

Late reply, but what? Ichigo was a vaizard from the moment he got his own zanpakuto via urahara's methods, and I'm pretty sure he never summoned masks before that.

What I'm wondering is whether ichigo's original hollow form/powers (the lizard-esque one) is directly related to this hollow, or if they are (or were?) separate, and the old one was his 'natural' hollow.

**Yugl** · 2013-04-21 02:06

Originally Posted by fantasticdan

Late reply, but what? Ichigo was a vaizard from the moment he got his own zanpakuto via urahara's methods, and I'm pretty sure he never summoned masks before that.

If you reread the chapter, Urahara stated that Ichigo's experience was different because he developed a mask first. The fact that he developed the mask first suggests resistance. Supposedly, this resistance was due to Shirosaki's interference.

On an unrelated note, have they ever stated the origins of Shinigami? These entities seem to have closely related concepts.

Environment + Individual soul + Weapon

Quincy manipulate the first two to create the weapon
FB manipulate Environment to make Weapon
Shinigami manipulate Individual soul to make Weapon
Horrow return a weapon to original form

Could just be a coincidence though since these are common elements of anime in general.

**fantasticdan** · 2013-04-21 09:16

Originally Posted by Yugl

If you reread the chapter, Urahara stated that Ichigo's experience was different because he developed a mask first. The fact that he developed the mask first suggests resistance. Supposedly, this resistance was due to Shirosaki's interference.

I thought he manifested the mask before the zanpakuto during (and as a result of) the training, not before the training entirely, so I'm not sure what you're getting at? I'll have to refind that chapter...

EDIT: https://starkana.me/manga/B/Bleach/chapter/63/2

Seems like ichigo was just resisting the hollow (so he was still able to find his zanpakuto while partially transformed), and not the hollow resisting something. I guess you could argue in retrospect the white hollow was protecting ichigo and blocking his innate hollow, but that's kind of out there.

**Deadgye** · 2013-04-21 09:46

Note how his body didn't disintegrate and then reform as a hollow. The process that Ichigo was going through when he was basically undergoing hollowfication in order to get his shinigami powers back is very, very similar to the process he went through in order to take control of his hollow powers to become a proper Vizard. In fact it's pretty much the exact same thing.

The mask forms, he loses himself and has to be contained. On the inside he's fighting to find himself. When he finally wins the mask falls off.

The 'hollow powers' were always inside of him and he was simply taking control of them to "get his shinigami powers back". What he took control of was actually his hollow powers when he got his shinigami powers back the first time. But because his hollow powers and shinigami powers are actually two sides of the same coin, it seemed like he simply got his shinigami powers back.

I think this all falls in nicely with the epiphany I had a few weeks ago.

**Yugl** · 2013-04-23 03:28

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/bleach/v58/c535/

**Ares** · 2013-04-23 04:13

(human+shinigami) + (hollow+Quincy) = Ichigo

**DrClout** · 2013-04-23 06:19

His explanation was long as fuck for no reason though lol.

It's fine. Subtly explained the relationship of all 3, another form of reverse hollowficiation, and the basics for Ichigo's powers.

Next we need to know how the Zero Squad knew of this.

**Sho** · 2013-04-23 06:27

So basically in this chapter:

1) "Twlight"-like plotline.
2) Urahara one ups Aizen again Or so he thought.
3) Dat (Human + Shinigami) * (Hollow + Quincy) Babymaking.
4) Unohana & Shunsui (as well as Gotei 13) were either mistaken about Isshin's "death" or told by old man Yama to keep his disappearance secret and identified as a combat loss.
5) Ryuken receives the ultimate cockblocks and instead becomes a lonely doctor over the years.
6) More than one way to reverse Hollowfication.
7) We see this again.

**Tajin** · 2013-04-23 06:30

Nice chapter.

**DrClout** · 2013-04-23 06:32

Originally Posted by Sho

So basically in this chapter:

1) "Twlight"-like plotline.
2) Urahara one ups Aizen again Or so he thought.
3) Dat (Human + Shinigami) * (Hollow + Quincy) Babymaking.
4) Unohana & Shunsui (as well as Gotei 13) were either mistaken about Isshin's "death" or told by old man Yama to keep his disappearance secret and identified as a combat loss.
5) Ryuken receives the ultimate cockblocks and instead becomes a lonely doctor over the years.
6) We see this again.

I like where #4 can lead us in the story. If Unohana couldn't recognize Aizen's fake body right away then she won't recognize Isshin's (assuming they go about it using the same method). And it definitely gives me an espionage feel too if they know whats happening and yet they do nothing about it but that only adds to number of questions later on.

You've got a good eye to catch #6 lol.

**Evane** · 2013-04-23 08:02

http://www.reactionface.info/sites/d...9082592656.jpg

**AoE** · 2013-04-23 08:23

Off-topic but anyone else sometimes pronounce Bleach ass Blee-ack for no reason?

Edit - dat ass pic gave me a freudian slip.

**Insanecyclone** · 2013-04-23 09:24

Originally Posted by Sho

So basically in this chapter:

1) "Twlight"-like plotline.
2) Urahara one ups Aizen again Or so he thought.
3) Dat (Human + Shinigami) * (Hollow + Quincy) Babymaking.
4) Unohana & Shunsui (as well as Gotei 13) were either mistaken about Isshin's "death" or told by old man Yama to keep his disappearance secret and identified as a combat loss.
5) Ryuken receives the ultimate cockblocks and instead becomes a lonely doctor over the years.
6) More than one way to reverse Hollowfication.
7) We see this again.

I knew #7 seemed familiar.

**Serra** · 2013-04-23 10:37

Wait, when did Unohana and Shunsui discuss Isshin's death..? If you're talking about the discussion about losing the 10th squad's captain from the Turn Back the Pendulum arc, that's before this.

**Odin'sLaw** · 2013-04-23 12:13

he says he's been studying Hollowfication for about 100 years but how long before it happened (as in the captains and Lt's turned hollow) was he studying this for? Ichigo is 17/18 so this would have had to have happened about 19-20 years ago which would be 80-82 years after the events of Turn back the pendulum which means he was actually studying this while he was in the division before 13th's? (can never remember who's divisions who's besides 11 (go go Kenny!) and for such a secret squad you'd think someone might have told someone

**Serra** · 2013-04-23 12:23

Aizen originally said that Urahara had been experimenting on Hollowfication -- I think he said people had been trying to perfect it in Soul Society for a long time didn't he? During Turn Back the Pendulum, someone made a point about Urahara knowing what Aizen had done and how that meant he must have been at least in someway familiar with the process. I imagine Urahara was studying Hollowfication on his own even before he was captain of the 12th.

Reread the part about the process, and so does this mean that Urahara sacrificed human souls to stabilize the Vaizards?

**Guitarman** · 2013-04-23 12:23

At this point I'm wondering how/why Rangiku and Hitsugaya seem to never mention Isshin after this whole process. Hope it gets explained out.

**Eurell** · 2013-04-23 12:28

Originally Posted by Serra

Reread the part about the process, and so does this mean that Urahara sacrificed human souls to stabilize the Vaizards?

I'll have to reread it myself now, but didn't he say he used Quincy arrows on them? He needs a shingami to fix her now, because she is a Quincy. So he needed Quincy powers to help the vaizards, since they were shingami.

**Serra** · 2013-04-23 12:33

Originally Posted by Guitarman

At this point I'm wondering how/why Rangiku and Hitsugaya seem to never mention Isshin after this whole process. Hope it gets explained out.

Just attribute it to their former captain who went off to the real world without approval and vanished -- could have died, done something illegal, who knows. They've probably discussed it between themselves, but it's not like anyone ever sat down and gave Ichigo a history lesson of Soul Society, so no reason for it to come up.

Originally Posted by Eurell

I'll have to reread it myself now, but didn't he say he used Quincy arrows on them? He needs a shingami to fix her now, because she is a Quincy. So he needed Quincy powers to help the vaizards, since they were shingami.

He said he needed to balance things out. Shinigami are the opposite of Quincy, and Hollow are the opposite of Humans, so he'd need both.

Spoiler: show

**kuronosan** · 2013-04-23 12:37

So Masaki dying is why Isshin is able to use his powers again. It's sort of sad, really.

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