Bleach

[Gredival]

Makes no sense. If Zangetsu is his Quincy power, then why does Zangetsu have Getsuga Tensho and Final Getsuga, techniques presumably passed down by his Shinigami father and thus would be part of his Shinigami lineage not his Quincy lineage?

You can argue that his Shinigami powers are a lot like a Quincy's, but that does nothing to explain why Isshin has them.

In the very early arcs it stated quincy abilities destroy hollows rather than "saving" them, where they get judged either to heaven or hell.

No, Quincies eradicate Hollows completely, destroying the soul.

Shinigamis cleanse the soul when they kill a Hollow, allowing it to go to Soul Society. However they can only cleanse a soul of sins committed while being a Hollow - any sins from mortal life can result in the Hollow being condemned to hell.

[Uzor]

Someone earlier compared Final Getsuga to Letz Stilz.

Tbh, we don't know if Ichigo's father have Final Getsuga Tensho. We assumed he does, but for all we know it was Ichigo's version of Letzt Stil. Ichigo's father obviously knew Ichigo is a Quincy and might have known about Letzt Stil and whatever.

Otherwise, Ichigo is his father's son. Zanpakuto get their powers and personality from their owner's souls. It's not far fetched to imagine Ichigo's soul is similar to his father's soul and would therefor have similar abilities. Personally, I think it's a mix of both.

Tat being said, what exactly is a Quincy? Bach is the original Quincy, but how was he "made"? Was he born with those powers, or was it something that caused it (like experiments)? Additionally, how does the other Quincy get their powers? Does he turn them in to Quincy, or are they all his children/grandchildren etc.? If its the first, wouldn't it be easy for him to get an army of full-blood Quincy? They shouldn't be so rare then it feels like. Obviously there's something more to it.

[Serra]

The only explanation I can think of is that his hollow powers tried to emulate Engetsu or something. Isshin, Shiba, and Ichigo are the only Shinigami who are related right (apart from Isane and her sister whose Shikai we've never seen)? Isshin's Zanpaktou was fire based it appeared (based on the release being burn) while Kaien's was water based, so it doesn't seem that families necessarily have similar abilities. Then again with how people are not really blood relatives in Soul Society, it Isshin and Ichigo might be the only case of actually being related..

Since we know that Isshin didn't use the Final Getsuga to lose his powers, I'm curious why he would know it. It seems like such an ultimate technique, the Zanpaktou would only teach it in a dire circumstance.

[kuronosan]

Just stop. Please just fucking stop. My brain can't take anymore stupid.

[Abandon]

Then your post makes no sense. Got it. What you said, then, is

In response to



What part am I contradicting? The nothing part is in response to Fullbring having nothing to do with Oetsu forging Ichigo's sword. The rest is in no way contradicting that statement. As a matter of fact, nowhere have I ever stated that Oetsu is using fullbring to create Ichigo's sword, so I'm not sure why he would even suggest that.

So, I'll repeat. You're dense.

Holy shit. ROFL. Let's try this again. I was talking about the post above yours. If you'd get off your I KNOW MORE ABOUT BLEACH THAN ANYONE EVER bullshit and come back to earth where there are no shinigami, you'd see that you sound like an asshat. But please, do whatever pleases you. I enjoy the opportunity for laughter.

[Serif]

White and full-bring are not the same thing, that was my point. One is the basis of Ichigo's zanpaktou and the other is a derivative ability that's no longer present.

I don't know how much clearer I can make it. Call the badge a plot-device if you want, but Ichigo's full-bring was manifested and lost during one arc and one arc only until Kubo states otherwise. It has absolutely no connection to anything else for Ichigo.

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/bleach/v53/c528/13.html

Was not this the badge that helped him with his fullbring? Seems like it is going to come up again somehow. This was right before he went back to King's Palace for the 2nd time. Could of misunderstood you though, happens :D

[Uzor]

Holy shit. ROFL. Let's try this again. I was talking about the post above yours. If you'd get off your I KNOW MORE ABOUT BLEACH THAN ANYONE EVER bullshit and come back to earth where there are no shinigami, you'd see that you sound like an asshat. But please, do whatever pleases you. I enjoy the opportunity for laughter.

That WAS the post above mine. I never stated I know more about bleach than everyone else. I posted my theory, and the two of you post stupid shit that's completely unrelated to refute it, like "LOL Y U SO STUPID" and "AAARGH" at least Kappa is posting actual facts to refute it rather than one-liners attempting to insult me.

To mimic you, the amount of stupid from yours and Kuno's posts give me a headache.

[BadKarma]

This thread.....it...hurts

[Eurell]

Guys guys.

You're all just awful.

[Gredival]

The only explanation I can think of is that his hollow powers tried to emulate Engetsu or something.

This is predicated on Zangetsu possessing anything Shirosaki/White/Aizen-Parasite-Hollow-That-Infested-Masaki gains. Which makes sense in our old understanding of Zangetsu/Shirosaki being the two sides of the same coin of Ichigo's dual Shinigami/Hollow power as a Vaizard.

But the way Afro-Samurai is speaking, Zangetsu is his Quincy powers masquerading as Shinigami powers, while Shirosaki already merged completely with his actual Shinigami powers. So anything Zangetsu gave him should be separate from what he inherited from Isshin, since that would be in the Shirosaki half that is only now finally being forged into his true Zanpaktou.

As someone else said, it makes sense in this arc but not with the rest of the story.

Someone earlier compared Final Getsuga to Letz Stilz.

Tbh, we don't know if Ichigo's father have Final Getsuga Tensho. We assumed he does, but for all we know it was Ichigo's version of Letzt Stil. Ichigo's father obviously knew Ichigo is a Quincy and might have known about Letzt Stil and whatever.

The implication was clearly that Isshin knew FGT because he had to go through the same thing to get Engetsu to teach him the technique, and that's the only reason he knew of its existence and wanted Ichigo to learn it while they were in the hyperbolic time cham- tunnel...

If it was Ichigo's version of the Quincy power glove, it makes no sense how Isshin would know how to unlock it via Zangetsu as if it were the same FGT technique. And at least, it would've or should've been portrayed differently rather than as a technique handed down through the -getsu family of swords

Otherwise, Ichigo is his father's son. Zanpakuto get their powers and personality from their owner's souls. It's not far fetched to imagine Ichigo's soul is similar to his father's soul and would therefor have similar abilities. Personally, I think it's a mix of both.

See above, it makes sense if Zangetsu were his actual Zanpaktou for it to share the powers of another -getsu sword from his father.

But Afro Samurai just told us that Zangetsu is his Quincy powers masquerading as Shinigami powers, and that White/Shirosaki is his true Shinigami power (merged with his Hollow power).

So the Zangetsu = Quincy thing is great in a vaccuum because you can explain all of Ichigo's abilities in relation to Quincy ones, until you remember that Zangetsu has the same abilities as Engetsu, which is a pure Shinigami Zanpaktou from his father's side.

[Uzor]

Like I said earlier; White is his Asauchi, Zangetsu is the personality and abilities, which comes from his soul. It makes perfect sense that Zangetsu could be his Quincy powers looking at it this way.

The implication was clearly that Isshin knew FGT because he had to go through the same thing to get Engetsu to teach him the technique, and that's the only reason he knew of its existence and wanted Ichigo to learn it while they were in the hyperbolic time cham- tunnel...

That was true when we thought that's how his dad had originally lost his powers, yes. That is no longer the case, and there's nothing suggesting he ever used or even learned FGT.

And since the abilities comes from the soul, his soul is partly his mother and partly his father (looking at it genetically), which would explain the similarities between Zngetsu nd Engetsu - and by extension FGT, if you look at it as Letzt Stil from his mother's side.

His new sword will probably still have similar abilities to Engetsu as it still draws its power from Ichigo's soul. It will probably have a similar name though, like Mangetsu or something...

[Serra]

That was true when we thought that's how his dad had originally lost his powers, yes. That is no longer the case, and there's nothing suggesting he ever used or even learned FGT.

Actually, he pretty much says Engetsu taught it to him..
http://www.mangapanda.com/94-54486-1...apter-409.html

At the very least, Engetsu was very violent and refused to teach it to him, meaning it's one of Engetsu's abilities.

[Uzor]

You're right, I forgot that exchange of words. At least we know he haven't used it, wonder if it might be something all Zanpkutos have their version of? Suppose thy would have used it by now then. Wonder what makes -getsu so special that it has a one-time use attack

[Gredival]

Yeah we pretty much can assume that Isshin underwent the attempt to learn FGT. Whether he ever actually learned it or used it is unknown, but he definitely knew the Zangetsu would get violent. Engetsu was probably the same way. Self-preservation, the Zanpaktou don't want to teach a technique of self-obliteration.

EDIT: And no I doubt it's something all Zanpaktous have. It was called Final Getsuga Tenshou as in it's exclusive to Getsuga swords. The technique is to literally become Getsuga.

So again it doesn't make sense if Zangetsu is his Quincy powers not his Shinigami lineage.

[Uzor]

One could ask why he didn't use it against Aizen if he had it too, though, instead pretty much forcing his son to use it

[kuronosan]

One could ask why he didn't use it against Aizen if he had it too, though, instead pretty much forcing his son to use it

Because you're stupid, that's why.

So look, I'll accept the premise that Zangetsu as we know him is not Ichigo's spirit. It makes sense because Ichigo's attacks resembled Quincy attacks.

The problem, as I started before, is that it doesn't make sense. If all of this is true, then how did he learn Bankai? Surely someone would have felt his energy as a Quincy.

Second, if this is true, why does Ichigo pull Zangetsu out with a red ribbon when Quincy have white ribbons? Only shinigami ribbons are red.

Finally, if this is true, why did Shirosaki say he and Zangetsu are one and the same when they aren't? Why didn't he tell Ichigo that Zangetsu was an imposter?

Because Kubo is full of shit, that's why.

[Lonewind]

one possible explanation is that Quincies absorbs Reiatsu around them and use it as their own spiritual energy and forging it into their own weapon. So the Quincy part or Ichigo absorbs the Inner Hollow/Shinigami Reiatsu and manifests itself as Zangetsu, while the whole process is still within Ichigo, thus the Reiatsu when finally used in the form of Zangetsu, besides the way it was "forged," it's used just like other Zanpakuto.

Normal Shinigami: [(shinigami reiatsu)]---Feeding into---->(Asauchi)---eventually--->Zanpakuto

Ichigo: [(many Shinigami reiatsu)---feeding into->(Shirosaki)---Quincy reiatsu absorption--->(Zangetsu)] ---Skipping Asauchi---->Zanpakuto
(reiatsu comes from within Ichigo, thus indistinguishable from other Shinigami reiatsu, and can be manipulated as such, and hence it being able to Bankai)

*[]denotes whatever happens within the Shinigami

The more likely explanation? Kubo is full of shit, but still credits to him for trying to explain it

[Khajit]

Shirosaki is true Zangetsu.
Everyone assumed it was a two sides to a coin deal but actually it was Bach bluffing.

Whenever Ichigo had to beat the actual Zangetsu he was summoned out, complained about not being used, and then shoved back in the box by Bach.

[Xno Kappa]

So again it doesn't make sense if Zangetsu is his Quincy powers not his Shinigami lineage.

Zangetsu can still be the way he is of Quincy origin because of Ichigo's Shiba lineage, using it as a baseline to mimic shinigami abilities. Thus the reason you have the similar skill-set between father and son. People keep bringing up White and Quincy but are seemingly forgetting Ichigo's a Shiba as well.

When was the last time Bleach has sparked this much of a discussion lol?

[Serra]

Shirosaki is true Zangetsu.
Everyone assumed it was a two sides to a coin deal but actually it was Bach bluffing.

Wasn't it Shirosaki who said they were the same though? I thought it came up during time that Ichigo went into his inner world and Zangetsu wasn't there? I can't remember when it was to look it up though.. During his Vaizard training, maybe?