Bleach

[Xno Kappa]

Zangetsu and Shirosaki being two sides of the same coin is still applicable. Urahara has stated Shinigami and Quincy are opposite sides of the same spectrum.

[Serra]

Something just came to me.. What about Zangetsu when Ichigo was in Bankai? Was that supposed to be Bach as a kid and how does that make sense..?

[Khajit]

Wasn't it Shirosaki who said they were the same though? I thought it came up during time that Ichigo went into his inner world and Zangetsu wasn't there? I can't remember when it was to look it up though.. During his Vaizard training, maybe?

I recall it more as shirosaki saying he IS ichigo's power whenever Ichigo thinks he's something foreign. Bach is usually the one saying shirosaki is part of the coin.

[Uzor]

Because you're stupid, that's why.

So look, I'll accept the premise that Zangetsu as we know him is not Ichigo's spirit. It makes sense because Ichigo's attacks resembled Quincy attacks.

The problem, as I started before, is that it doesn't make sense. If all of this is true, then how did he learn Bankai? Surely someone would have felt his energy as a Quincy.

Second, if this is true, why does Ichigo pull Zangetsu out with a red ribbon when Quincy have white ribbons? Only shinigami ribbons are red.

Finally, if this is true, why did Shirosaki say he and Zangetsu are one and the same when they aren't? Why didn't he tell Ichigo that Zangetsu was an imposter?

Because Kubo is full of shit, that's why.

So I'm stupid because you think Kubo's writing makes no sense? So because you fail to grasp it, I'm stupid?

K.

As for chakra lines, like I said. He is still a Shinigami, both from his father and sword stab. The only thing he doesn't have in Shinigami-ways is an Asauchi.

[Bail]

This is all setting the stage for Ichigo eventually dual-wielding zanpakutos!

[Uzor]

That would be cool looking actually, lol.

[Yugl]

I went back to look over the "White" details since I didn't really understand that before.

1. A "White" is a hollow created using the souls of Shinigami
2. An Asauchi is composed of the souls of Shinigami (This is an interesting piece no one has discussed)
3. Whites fuse with Shinigami powers to become the real Zanpakuto (Many of you seem to misunderstand this bit when you ask about the ribbons)
3a. This means Shirosaki is the real, or part of the real, Zanpakuto
4. Zangetsu is his Quincy power

What we're really unsure about is what each "soul" means.
What does having a hollow soul do? The best I can figure is Resureccion (Return to original form; applies to both native hollows and Vaizard)
What does having a Shinigami soul do?
What does having a Quincy soul do?

Not much we can tell from the last two. We know what members of these groups do, but we don't know what that means for their power other than distribution of reishi (Shinigami: Reishi from individual to weapon; Quincy: Reishi from environment to weapon).

Some interesting links:
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/bleach/v25/c218/19.html
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/bleach/v08/c063/16.html
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/bleach/v25/c219/9.html (His version of the Bankai is white)
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/bleach/v25/c220/10.html
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/bleach/v13/c111/9.html
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/bleach/v13/c112/3.html
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/bleach/v13/c113/12.html

[Gredival]

So I'm stupid because you think Kubo's writing makes no sense? So because you fail to grasp it, I'm stupid?

K.

No because Kubo's writing has been blatantly bad before, and he's no stranger to retconning himself because he admittedly only planned the story out to Rukia's rescue. He admitted rereading the story to "keep up" which is where he probably comes up with ideas for what to put in.

And you lost all credibility when you talked about Shinigami dueling over the same Zanpaktou, which was a movie plotline point. So now there is increased impetus on you in particular to prove what you say rather than just toss out insults and pretend they are arguments (like other people have done).

And keep in mind you are arguing from the assumption that it makes sense, when everyone else argues from the assumption that lolKubo.

[Deadgye]

You're all being silly, especially after I laid out all this shit for you. Except Uzor, he's just being fucking retarded.

White is his Asauchi, Zangetsu is the personality and abilities, which comes from his soul.

ALL ASAUCHI ARE BLANK SLATES. THEY ARE EXACTLY THE SAME. ICHIGO'S WHITEY IS NOT, AND NEVER WAS, AN ASAUCHI. THE MOMENT HE TOUCHED THE ASAUCHI HE PUT HIS SOUL INTO IT AND IT BECOME AN UNREFINED ZANPAKUTO.

You're all forgetting that Shirosaki and Zangetsu are one in the same; and that this has been known as fact for a long time now. They are Ichigo's power. Stop trying to think of them as separate beings and just accept that they're the heads and tails sides of a coin. Also remember that Shirosaki is the one who gave/gives Ichigo "Getsuga Tenshou", not Zangetsu.

[Charismatic]

Normal Shinigami: [(shinigami reiatsu)]---Feeding into---->(Asauchi)---eventually--->Zanpakuto

Ichigo: [(many Shinigami reiatsu)---feeding into->(Shirosaki)---Quincy reiatsu absorption--->(Zangetsu)] ---Skipping Asauchi---->Zanpakuto

This is the only explanation that makes sense to me so far, I don't know if this is right but if this is how Kubo were to say things worked... I'd be satisfied with it.

[Bail]

You're all being silly, especially after I laid out all this shit for you. Except Uzor, he's just being fucking retarded.


ALL ASAUCHI ARE BLANK SLATES. THEY ARE EXACTLY THE SAME. ICHIGO'S WHITEY IS NOT, AND NEVER WAS, AN ASAUCHI. THE MOMENT HE TOUCHED THE ASAUCHI HE PUT HIS SOUL INTO IT AND IT BECOME AN UNREFINED ZANPAKUTO.

You're all forgetting that Shirosaki and Zangetsu are one in the same; and that this has been known as fact for a long time now. They are Ichigo's power. Stop trying to think of them as separate beings and just accept that they're the heads and tails sides of a coin. Also remember that Shirosaki is the one who gave/gives Ichigo "Getsuga Tenshou", not Zangetsu.

I thought zangetsu taught ichigo getsuga....when he told him to use the name of the attack to make it stronger. Shirosaki was the first to use it in bankai. That was why ichigo hesitated to use it while fighting grimmjow because he was afraid it sped up his hollowfication.

[Deadgye]

Perhaps it's the black getsuga tenshou that I'm thinking about.

[Abandon]

the black one, sure. the original one is shinigami based, since isshin has it as well.

[Gredival]

You're all forgetting that Shirosaki and Zangetsu are one in the same; and that this has been known as fact for a long time now. They are Ichigo's power. Stop trying to think of them as separate beings and just accept that they're the heads and tails sides of a coin. Also remember that Shirosaki is the one who gave/gives Ichigo "Getsuga Tenshou", not Zangetsu.

This is literally what Tensa Zangetsu told Ichigo while in Final Getsuga training, that they were two parts of the same being with both of them together representing the sum of his powers. The being that manifested was about the balance of his inner power (thus Shirosaki having control when Ichigo had not mastered his Vaizard power).

But we have reason to question that now. Shirosaki is himself the balance between those two powers, and there is a third element to it. You could say that in the end it's still the same dynamic as before, with Zangetsu being the balance of Quincy, and Shirosaki being Hollow/Shinigami. But it certainly doesn't feel that way. The fact that Zangetsu is represented by Juha Bach, and has been "deceiving" Ichigo is obviously going to be significant in some way. Also it seemed pretty explicit that Zangetsu was understood as the Shinigami power in the balance, which makes me think Kubo retcon.

I mean I just don't understand why if Zangetsu was really his Quincy powers, it would manifest as an imitation of Shinigami powers. Just because Ichigo didn't know he was a Quincy and wanted to be a Shinigami?

I thought zangetsu taught ichigo getsuga....when he told him to use the name of the attack to make it stronger. Shirosaki was the first to use it in bankai. That was why ichigo hesitated to use it while fighting grimmjow because he was afraid it sped up his hollowfication.

This is correct. Ichigo first manifested Getsuga when he was training to get his Shinigami (Quincy?) powers back from Urahara after Byakuya sealed them. Zangetsu taught him the name of the technique supposedly to make the more powerful. But Ichigo doesn't want to use Bankai Getsuga against Grimmjaow because it's "his" (Shirosaki) technique.

[Pere]

What if.. "Zangetsu" (since he resides within Ichigo hanging around Shirosaki) only taught Ichigo how to use Shirosaki's skills? I don't think he needs to know the source of the power to use them. Ichigo always thought those skills were related to "Zangetsu" but the black dude told him "Zangetsu" was just faking his involvement on those skills. Which doesn't mean he wants to harm ichigo or manipulate him, as i see it "Zangetsu" is more civilized than Shirosaki so i guess it makes sense he wanted to help Ichigo even if it wasn't with his own skills. Why didn't he teach him quincy skills? idk ask kubo d_d i guess "Zangetsu" in some form retains a few memories from 1000 years ago and wants to redeem himself after being corrupted by anger? loss? friendship? Hashirama? and didn't tell Ichigo because he wanted to tell him "when the time is right"?

Anyways i'm the only one surprised the black dude knows so much about the inner world of Ichigo? how does he know how the fuck does "Zangetsu" look like?

PD: Please stop saying White was Ichigo's asauchi when an asauchi is the physical sword and we know ichigo never had a physical sword until now.

[kuronosan]

So I'm stupid because you think Kubo's writing makes no sense? So because you fail to grasp it, I'm stupid?

K.

As for chakra lines, like I said. He is still a Shinigami, both from his father and sword stab. The only thing he doesn't have in Shinigami-ways is an Asauchi.

God, please STOP.

[Abandon]

lol

[The Blackrose]

So I'm stupid because you think Kubo's writing makes no sense? So because you fail to grasp it, I'm stupid?

This thread is so over. Pack it up, fellas.

[Uzor]

No because Kubo's writing has been blatantly bad before, and he's no stranger to retconning himself because he admittedly only planned the story out to Rukia's rescue. He admitted rereading the story to "keep up" which is where he probably comes up with ideas for what to put in.

And you lost all credibility when you talked about Shinigami dueling over the same Zanpaktou, which was a movie plotline point. So now there is increased impetus on you in particular to prove what you say rather than just toss out insults and pretend they are arguments (like other people have done).

And keep in mind you are arguing from the assumption that it makes sense, when everyone else argues from the assumption that lolKubo.

Again, the zanpakuto dueling thing is completely unrelated to this. That was a joke theory about Ichigo's new bankai being all bankais. Nowhere in my theory that he will get a new zanpakuto I with a new name have I mentioned Shinigamis having the same zanpakuto.

PD: Please stop saying White was Ichigo's asauchi when an asauchi is the physical sword and we know ichigo never had a physical sword until now.

Now, Asauchi is the soul that the zanpakuto is based on, the physical sword is the one at the Shinigami creates by infusing his soul in to the Asauchi. In Ichigo's case, he didn't have an Asauchi. Which is why I said that I believe the White acted as an Asauchi in this case. Like Oetsu said, Asauchi and White are similar.

[kuronosan]

STAHP. You are embarrassing yourself.
You have the concept of zanpakutou and spirit mixed up and it's really annoying.

It's more annoying when you factor in that you think you understand Bleach better than the rest of us.