Bleach

**Gredival** · 2013-06-20 20:02

Originally Posted by Alarial

Exactly. His "post FGT" training form was just him accepting that his power was the combination of the two forces. He was a god at that point essentially (trancended being), that moved mountains at the turn of a blade.

You could argue that when he got his powers back, Bachgetsu started suppressing whitey again, hence why he wasn't as strong as he was post FGT training.

However now that he's back to having both forces un-restrained, he should be a trancendent being again.. albeit a dual weilding one.

No. They literally explain Final Getsuga Tenshou as "Becoming Getsuga." You do not need be a Hollow to do this. You do not need to be a Quincy to do this. All you need is a -getsu family sword (En-getsu, Zan-getsu)

This is why Isshin could potentially use the move.

Don't try to tie everything together. The reason I point out plot holes is to show that Kubo is an inconsistent author who makes shit up as he goes along. That means you should presume against everything having connections, because that would require forethought.

Post FGT training was Ichigo "at his fullest" using "all of his combined power" - Which was all of Bachgetsu and all of Whitey. Unless you're attempting to say post FGT training Ichigo was still a supressed Ichigo?

1. No. That is never said anywhere. What is stated is that the Final Getsuga Tenshou is "Becoming Getsuga." That doesn't mean you go Mystic Gohan and have permanent access to your full power.

2. Post-FGT training Ichigo was probably still suppressed. FGT-mode Ichigo though? Who knows. Did FGT unlock the suppressed Zangetsu within him? That isn't addressed at any point. All we know is that he became Getsuga.

It's also not terrible of us to be a bit annoyed/confused by the inconsistency in powers/abilities after he's able to use both sides of his power to the fullest.

But this is only inconsistent if you assume FGT is in any way related to his "self-actualization."

It's not. There is no reason to believe that.

Thus, it's not illegitimate to assume that Kubo won't let Ichigo go "god mode" again in the series. Hence the problem with giving him the SAME access to unrestricted dual powers. Hence the problem with him getting unrestricted dual powers and it being represented as "dual weilding" instead of the post FGT "sword attached to hand" trancendent being representation.

Again you assume his "unrestricted" dual-Zanpaktou powers are related to Final Getsuga. That is a false assumption. You don't need a dual, or tri, nature to use Final Getsuga (proven by Isshin).

The reason he probably won't let it happen is that it would be bad for the story. The problem is that means Kubo wrote himself into a corner and has to give some valid reason for why Ichigo won't just use Final Getsuga and destroy everyone with Mugetsu. But there are tons of potential explanations, a big one being that it would mean Ichigo would lose his powers (may not matter for us as readers, but presumably as a character Ichigo would care about that).

Originally Posted by Abandon

I'm sure there's a place other than BG for you to state your thoughts without being criticized to bits. You've been a member of BG since 2008 and you haven't figured out that this place is full of assholes yet? You may truly be better off googling another forum for your ideas.

You're allowed to be assholes, but not just because he wants to discuss something. Legitimate disagreement with some measure of contempt is one thing, but that doesn't mean you can shit up threads just because they are posting and you don't want threads to have actual discussion.

**Abandon** · 2013-06-20 20:15

i have no issue with actual discussion. I have issue with there being assumptions being stated as fact, even after it's been pointed out that they are, in fact, false. Being stubborn about something that has already been disproven is just ignorance.

The points you just made are exactly what I mean. you pointed out the same things several of us have pointed out, and instead of looking at the written evidence and taking it as what it is, they've decided to start stating what they think is right, although all evidence is in the contrary. I've not indended to shit this thread up since Bane isn't in here, but I have every right to vocalize my frustrations at the repeat offenders of reason.

**kuronosan** · 2013-06-20 20:18

Legitimate disagreements are cool but there is a reason Gredival, Abandon, and myself are so on point with Bleach discussions and it's because we know the manga and the author as well as typical plot progressions of similar stories.

You can't just Uzor your way into a discussion and then act like your word is law, especially when you haven't been a consistent or productive part of the discussion.

If you want to, just use chapter citations to back up your word. Don't just add your own take on it.

Alarial · 2013-06-20 20:19

Oh I agree that FGT itself isn't related to his self-actualization. That's just a super move of the getsuga family.

His power/trancedence he displayed after his FGT training (but before using his powers) however, WAS supposed to be him realizing his full hollow/shinigami potential. "self-actualization" as you call it.

So I'm just not sure why it's different now.

One way you could see a difference is that his "trancendent" form was only supposed to be a combination of his Shinigami and Hollow sides (which SHOULD just be Whitey, since whitey was his hollow powers.. and the source of his true Shinigami Zanpakuto. But Kubo represented that "trancendent" inner Zanpakuto as a combination of Whitey and Bach (plot inconsistency with current story).

If his trancendent self was truely a combination of Bachgetsu and Whitey, then his trancendent form was actually Quincy+Hollow (or Quincy+Hollow+Shinigami since his Hollow was the source of his Shinigami blade). Maybe that's why he pretty much stomped on Aizen, which was just a Hollow+Shinigami).

So it's really the power inconsistency that bothers me, combined with how Kubo is representing his inner soul (as one combined being at heart, or as originally conflicting beings that he now holds seperately).

Edit: Kuronosan - Not meaning to get into another debate, but where did I ask anyone to take what I was saying as law? And what claims was I making that you needed me to cite? The only thing I asked is that Abandon not go all "foaming at the mouth" if someone makes an (not unreasonable) assumption about power levels.

**Gredival** · 2013-06-20 20:19

Originally Posted by Abandon

i have no issue with actual discussion. I have issue with there being assumptions being stated as fact, even after it's been pointed out that they are, in fact, false. Being stubborn about something that has already been disproven is just ignorance.

And you are free to point that out, and even to do so in tradition BG asshole manner.

I've not indended to shit this thread up since Bane isn't in here, but I have every right to vocalize my frustrations at the repeat offenders of reason.

And I didn't infract you because you have the right to call a spade a spade.

I was simply reminding everyone that just because it's BG and just because it's lolBLEACH doesn't mean this is Spam.

**Tajin** · 2013-06-20 20:30

Originally Posted by Abandon

3) Perhaps there are other things that would suit you better than reading bleach. Maybe try chugging it.

A+

**Gredival** · 2013-06-20 20:32

Originally Posted by Alarial

His power/trancedence he displayed after his FGT training (but before using his powers) however, WAS supposed to be him realizing his full hollow/shinigami potential. "self-actualization" as you call it.

You don't know this. He let "Zangetsu" stab him. This doesn't mean he understood anything about his Hollow, his Quincy, etc. What we probably saw was a mucher higher realization of his Shinigami powers.

Whether they were still being dampened by his Quincy power is anyone's guess. For all we know, his "final form" would have been even stronger had he known all this before facing Aizen.

One way you could see a difference is that his "trancendent" form was only supposed to be a combination of his Shinigami and Hollow sides (which SHOULD just be Whitey, since whitey was his hollow powers.. and the source of his true Shinigami Zanpakuto. But Kubo represented that "trancendent" inner Zanpakuto as a combination of Whitey and Bach (plot inconsistency with current story).

I'm not sure why everyone says that he was fighting a merged Shirosaki/Zangetsu during FGT training. When he gets there, Zangetsu explicitly states that this is simply his Bankai form. Nothing about Shirosaki.

FGT is becoming Getsuga - nothing more, nothing less. So there's no reason to presume it had anything to do with Shirosaki.

Maybe Ichigo could have gone Vaizard still on top of everything he did already. We don't know. The true plot hole is the fact that Ichigo fighting Bach-getsu should not give him domination over either the pure Zangetsu or Shirosaki Zangetsu.

We do know that in addition to Shirosaki having melded with the pure Zangetsu, Juha-getsu and Shirosaki can manifest together, but usually the one that appears is a reflection of Ichigo's inner balance, with Shirosaki manifesting when he's fighting to be the dominant side (of Ichigo? of the Zangetsu/White Shinigami-Hollow power?)

Maybe that's why he pretty much stomped on Aizen, which was just a Hollow+Shinigami).

Or maybe because a final move that is overpowering at the cost of your power/life has to be really fucking OP to justify the costs. It's a shounen theme.

**Abandon** · 2013-06-20 20:48

Originally Posted by Alarial

Oh I agree that FGT itself isn't related to his self-actualization. That's just a super move of the getsuga family.

His power/trancedence he displayed after his FGT training (but before using his powers) however, WAS supposed to be him realizing his full hollow/shinigami potential. "self-actualization" as you call it.

So I'm just not sure why it's different now.

One way you could see a difference is that his "trancendent" form was only supposed to be a combination of his Shinigami and Hollow sides (which SHOULD just be Whitey, since whitey was his hollow powers.. and the source of his true Shinigami Zanpakuto. But Kubo represented that "trancendent" inner Zanpakuto as a combination of Whitey and Bach (plot inconsistency with current story).

If his trancendent self was truely a combination of Bachgetsu and Whitey, then his trancendent form was actually Quincy+Hollow (or Quincy+Hollow+Shinigami since his Hollow was the source of his Shinigami blade). Maybe that's why he pretty much stomped on Aizen, which was just a Hollow+Shinigami).

So it's really the power inconsistency that bothers me, combined with how Kubo is representing his inner soul (as one combined being at heart, or as originally conflicting beings that he now holds seperately).

Edit: Kuronosan - Not meaning to get into another debate, but where did I ask anyone to take what I was saying as law? And what claims was I making that you needed me to cite? The only thing I asked is that Abandon not go all "foaming at the mouth" if someone makes an (not unreasonable) assumption about power levels.

If we take what Juha/Zangetsu was saying to heart, then it means that when he was "realizing his full hollow/shinigami potential," that may also not be entirely true. If it is as I understand it, it simply means he allowed Ichigo MORE access to his Shinigami side. He still had no knowledge/use of his Quincy side, so I believe claiming he stomped Aizen due to using all of the powers would be incorrect. I say "MORE" access because as we know now, it truly wasn't his full shinigami power.

Furthermore, Using Juha as the representation of his shinigami powers is actually QUITE accurate. Ichigo's shinigami strength only increased through training he did with "Zangetsu," and since Juha was controlling how much access he had to it, I'm perfectly okay with the obviously retconned representation of Zangetsu as Juha.

**Abandon** · 2013-06-20 20:51

Originally Posted by Gredival

You don't know this. He let "Zangetsu" stab him. This doesn't mean he understood anything about his Hollow, his Quincy, etc. What we probably saw was a mucher higher realization of his Shinigami powers.

Whether they were still being dampened by his Quincy power is anyone's guess. For all we know, his "final form" would have been even stronger had he known all this before facing Aizen.

I'm not sure why everyone says that he was fighting a merged Shirosaki/Zangetsu during FGT training. When he gets there, Zangetsu explicitly states that this is simply his Bankai form. Nothing about Shirosaki.

FGT is becoming Getsuga - nothing more, nothing less. So there's no reason to presume it had anything to do with Shirosaki.

Maybe Ichigo could have gone Vaizard still on top of everything he did already. We don't know. The true plot hole is the fact that Ichigo fighting Bach-getsu should not give him domination over either the pure Zangetsu or Shirosaki Zangetsu.

We do know that in addition to Shirosaki having melded with the pure Zangetsu, Juha-getsu and Shirosaki can manifest together, but usually the one that appears is a reflection of Ichigo's inner balance, with Shirosaki manifesting when he's fighting to be the dominant side (of Ichigo? of the Zangetsu/White Shinigami-Hollow power?)

Or maybe because a final move that is overpowering at the cost of your power/life has to be really fucking OP to justify the costs. It's a shounen theme.

it's like you were reading my mind. Also, your last point is hella legit, and i'm not sure how it slipped my mind.

**arus2001** · 2013-06-20 21:05

I'm not sure why everyone says that he was fighting a merged Shirosaki/Zangetsu during FGT training. When he gets there, Zangetsu explicitly states that this is simply his Bankai form. Nothing about Shirosaki.

Incorrect. Was easier for me to pull this from the anime, episode 306. Zangetsu and Shirosaki merge after explaining to Ichigo Shirosaki's viking form and how it was what fought Ulquiorra and ultimately hindered his ability to fully hollowfy out of fear of it.

Spoiler: show

And from there they fight.

**Abandon** · 2013-06-20 21:10

actually, it was isshin that asked when the last time he had meditated with zangetsu was. That's when ichogo realized that other than when he first learned getsuga, they'd all been with shirosaki. either way, i don't buy it as being a merger.

**Gredival** · 2013-06-20 21:19

Are you sure this merge scene is cannon and not filler because I don't remember that at all.

**Abandon** · 2013-06-20 21:29

it was during the training for FGT, but them drawing him split like that wasn't in the manga; it was just young Juha.

**arus2001** · 2013-06-20 21:32

For fuck's sake, some of you guys are so obsessed with proving people wrong that when something right does come up, you still try.
http://www.mangapanda.com/94-55199-1...apter-411.html

Spoiler: show

**Serra** · 2013-06-20 21:34

Yes, merger is cannon.

Young Zangetsu which represents Tensa Zangetsu(which also needs to be explained..):

Spoiler: show

Zangetsu pulls out the source of Ichigo's despair, white in his super Hollow form:

Spoiler: show

Zangetsu and White merge and become one. Even if you want to argue that Zangetsu was lying, White says it too..

Spoiler: show

Edit: beaten ; ;

**arus2001** · 2013-06-20 21:40

You went a bit further back to him pulling out Ichigo's "despair" but yeah... I'm just sick of this "I KNOW MORE ABOUT BLEACH THAN YOU SO STFU" shit. Needs to be titty time again.

**Tymon** · 2013-06-20 21:41

This is what I was talking about by "getting shown the door."

The insinuation here is either

a) He learned it from Engetsu (proves it isn't Leszt Stil)
b) He tried, and wasn't able to (also proves it)

Honestly, the topic of discussion at this point with me isn't even what FGT (and Mugetsu) is.

People were complaining for a while that Ichigo didn't even need to use it because he was kicking Aizen's ass so much in his Swastika swordarm transcendent mode. That's what I want to know about.

What exactly caused him to get to that point? It doesn't appear to be any different from what he attained right now (and this is up in the air, as we've seen nothing from what he is right now) but I'll bet the farm he isn't at that level of power. He would be so far above the rest of the cast that it would be a joke to even give him assistance.

And if he isn't at that level of the power, the question becomes: why not? There was something done that caused the massive powerup, and it wasn't FGT; he used that AFTERWARDS.

**arus2001** · 2013-06-20 21:53

I'd chalk it up to a dash of resolve, him generally tapping into more of his power, and a side of time skip tomfoolery implying a mastery such. In a way, we basically saw an Ichigo "3 months into the future" or however much you want to account for his stay in the precipice world. Call it a paradox or whatever since he goes on to lose his power and his physical growth reverts (hair and a bit of height), thus we don't see that same thing again once he reverts. A number of months pass without powers and I still feel his mixed energy jumpstart introduced a problem similar to when Rukia first stabbed him in that he wasn't quite himself, muddied by all the mixed energies poured into the blade. Both served as a catalyst to his awakening/awareness, but it took Urahara's training the first time to get him rolling and now getting his new swords as the real reboot. He may not be full-time FGT tier yet, but give him time.

**Deadgye** · 2013-06-21 02:20

Yes, I saw that lol.

But that's inconsistent with his FGT training, which showed Bach/Whitey fully merged and at full potential (Bach not suppressing Whitey, which is/was the source of Ichigo's Shinigami powers).

So if FGT = Ichigo fully unsuppressed and with both his Whitey and Bachgetsu powers. How is that really different now, except that he keeps the two entities seperate for some reason.

Just seems inconsistent. But I'm assuming I'm just confused.

Both Bachy and Whity 'combined' to stop him because they didn't want him to use 'letz stilz' and lose his powers. That mode wasn't him fully unsuprressed at all, it was just him in a held back turbo-mode.

a) He learned it from Engetsu (proves it isn't Leszt Stil)
b) He tried, and wasn't able to (also proves it)

He becomes getsuga, right? Getsuga is his attack, he is not becoming engetsu. And his attack is basically a quincy attack through a sword instead of a bow. It may not actually be the Leszt Stil quincy attack or whatever, but it's definitely something that functions exactly like it. The 'proof' I offer up is the fact that he regained his powers by getting stabbed 2cm of the heart; the same exact way Ishida regained his powers after using Letz Stil.

**Uzor** · 2013-06-21 03:35

He might still be super strong like that in Bankai mode, what we've seen right now is him in Shikai mode.

That being said, yes, it is strange.

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