Bleach

[Boyiee]

what in the hell happened while i was asleep? i feel as if more assumptions were made without reading.

It's my fault. I used your name and the word thanks in the same sentence on the last page. </3

[Abandon]

damnit boyiee, i thought we went over this already. soon I'll have one of your vindictive colored-name friends PMing me to stop or else

[Boyiee]

damnit boyiee, i thought we went over this already. soon I'll have one of your vindictive colored-name friends PMing me to stop or else

I have a problem, but admitting it is the first step to recovery.

[Abandon]

I have some speculation as far as why Ichigo has his father's abilities, and you never hear of it in the rest of the group to be certified. Shinigami were at one point, all alive. They have all died, and they've been hanging out in Soul Society for years, right? But not a single one of them, be it from a noble family or other regular scum (hi2u rukia), has left SS to go back to earth and actually had a hand in creating new actual life. Since part of him is in Ichigo, is it too far-fetched that not only did his noble blood pass along (swinging skyscraper status), but part of his soul, and along with it, the abilities that HIS SOUL created (getsuga)?

We can sit around and guess that Byakuya and his grandfather may have similarities in their techniques until we're blue in the face. We can also guess that Isshin and the rest of the Kaiba clan may have similarities. But never has there been, to our knowledge, a legit passing-on of techniques.

[Abandon]

I have a problem, but admitting it is the first step to recovery.

I'm glad you took that step. It's the hardest one, after all

[Yugl]

We can also guess that Isshin and the rest of the Kaiba clan may have similarities.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lw...tog2o1_500.png

[Abandon]

oh yeah. lol, my bad. jsut woke up and got to work

[Abandon]

also, fuck the haters, Seto Kaiba was that nigga

[Gredival]

He becomes getsuga, right? Getsuga is his attack, he is not becoming engetsu. And his attack is basically a quincy attack through a sword instead of a bow. It may not actually be the Leszt Stil quincy attack or whatever, but it's definitely something that functions exactly like it.

No reason to believe this.

Getsuga is the essence of both -getsu swords. The -getsu Zankpaktous, while "part of" the Shinigami user, are not the same as Getsuga itself. They are a medium through which to channel Getsuga... for example using reiatsu to channel Getsuga as lazers (Getsuga Tenshou).

FGT however is about becoming Getsuga. That is to say, it's the elimination of the middle-man Zanpaktou and allowing the Shinigami to directly and physically manifest Getsuga. This means FGT is fusing the Shinigami directly with the source of power -- not fusing with the sword which is a medium of that power.

It is not a Quincy emulation. Ishida's super Quincy form and the resulting loss of power was just him removing the limits on his body drawing in reishi from the environment and burning out as a result. The technique is basically feeding too much NOS into an engine. You get an explosion of power, but you totally wreck the fuel intake system and roast it in exchange for that burst. So you win the race, but the car gets totaled.

The techniques are similar in that they are a shounen trope of a final technique which the user gives up a sacrifice in exchange for a massive power boost... but the mechanics of the techniques are discernibly different. One is a merging between the user and a discrete

The 'proof' I offer up is the fact that he regained his powers by getting stabbed 2cm of the heart; the same exact way Ishida regained his powers after using Letz Stil.

That's also where Byakuya stabs him to rob him of his powers when they take Rukia back. It's the same place Byakuya tries to stab Renji. It's a generic point for spiritual pressure - Shinigami or Quincy. It's like the aorta, no matter who you are it's in the same damn place.

I pointed out earlier my annoyance at the power inconsistencies with Ichigo's current form and his post FGT training form, and I'm chastised for "assuming his post FGT training form is more powerful than he is now." That wasn't a wild assumption given that Kubo represented him as a trancedent being that was merged with his Zanpakuto.

No your incorrect assumption was thinking that what Ichigo is now has anything at all to do with FGT. FGT is completely separate from anything else, until proven differently. All FGT is, is becoming Getsuga.

When Aizen is about to kill Ichigo after FGT wears off, he makes a comment about how he no longer has a Zanpaktou either because he, like Ichigo, had ascended to the point where the sword was unnecessary. In other words, he was becoming Kyoka Suigetsu.

However Aizen was wrong that Ichigo was the same (or he was right at the time, and in order to make sense of the story at this point it's retconned). Ichigo didn't become Zangetsu... he became Getsuga. It is true that FGT eliminated Ichigo's need for a Zanpaktou-- because he no longer needed Zangetsu to channel Getsuga -- but that is not the same as Ichigo becoming Zangetsu.

There's no reason to believe Ichigo was a transcendent being for eliminating the barriers between Hollow/Shinigami, or Hollow/Shinigami/Quicy, or Shinigami/Zanpaktou. He was transcendent for eliminating the barrier between him and Getsuga.

We still don't know however if the traits for a Zanpakuto are similar among souls that are related.

This is the only case of related Zanpaktou we've seen. It would be reasonable to infer related Zanpaktou have related abilities, or else why/how the hell would they be related?

We cannot assume related Shinigami have related Zankpaktou though. We know that Kaien was also a Shiba, but his Negibana was not a -getsu sword.

[Charismatic]

I'm just sad I wasn't the first one to get here to call you out on that Kaiba mistake.

[Serra]

Wasn't Byakuka and his Grandfather in the manga? Never shown his shilai but they were related.

Yes, Byakuya's grandfather was shown (and was one of the previous captains I believe), but that doesn't mean they're related by blood.

Spoiler: show

http://i33.mangapanda.com/bleach/76/bleach-1587660.jpg

I mentioned this a few pages ago, but even people who are "related" do not have the same abilities. The people we know are related are Isshin, Ichigo, and Kaien (all Shibas), Byakuya, his grandfather, and Rukia (Kubo has stated that Rukia was adopted), Isane and Kiyone, and Jidanbo and Jirobo (I'm sure someone can fill in if I've forgotten anyone). Ignoring Ichigo, Isshin had a fire based (release word is burn), or at least energy based Zanpakutou while Kaien had a water based Zanpakutou. The only characters we know are related by blood are Ichigo and his dad, and Rukia and her sister (both died at the same time and were sent to the same place:

Spoiler: show

http://i10.mangapanda.com/bleach/179/bleach-1588815.jpg

This might be me reading into it, but because it seems to be fairly arbitrarily where people are selected to go, I imagine that the royal families essentially exist by selecting individuals with high reiatsu and adopting them.

That said, all this might have been forgotten by Kubo (lots of people talk about their families, the resemblance of Omaeda's family, etc), so it might be moot, but until he explicitly says otherwise, this is what we have to go on.

[fantasticdan]

I have some speculation as far as why Ichigo has his father's abilities, and you never hear of it in the rest of the group to be certified. Shinigami were at one point, all alive. They have all died, and they've been hanging out in Soul Society for years, right? But not a single one of them, be it from a noble family or other regular scum (hi2u rukia), has left SS to go back to earth and actually had a hand in creating new actual life. Since part of him is in Ichigo, is it too far-fetched that not only did his noble blood pass along (swinging skyscraper status), but part of his soul, and along with it, the abilities that HIS SOUL created (getsuga)?

We can sit around and guess that Byakuya and his grandfather may have similarities in their techniques until we're blue in the face. We can also guess that Isshin and the rest of the Kaiba clan may have similarities. But never has there been, to our knowledge, a legit passing-on of techniques.

That makes a lot of sense, I have a feeling Kubo is never going to explain it thou.

As for the shiba clan, kaien was head of the family (I think?) and had a seemingly unrelated getsu-less water zapakuto.

Funny thou, aizens zanpaktuo was water based, AND moon-themed with -getsu in the name.

[Gredival]

Yes, Byakuya's grandfather was shown (and was one of the previous captains I believe), but that doesn't mean they're related by blood ...
This might be me reading into it, but because it seems to be fairly arbitrarily where people are selected to go, I imagine that the royal families essentially exist by selecting individuals with high reiatsu and adopting them.

I believe for noble families it is different. They make a giant deal about how Byakuya broke the rules to marry non-noble blood (Hisana) then to adopt a commoner (Rukia) into the clan. The chances Byakuya is not a blood-child are extremely small.

The rules may have been different for the Shibas, but Ichigo probably looks like Kaien due to blood.

Funny thou, aizens zanpaktuo was water based, AND moon-themed with -getsu in the name.

Kyoka Suigetsu is probably not related to Zangetsu or Engetsu. I think the moon in the name is a reference to reflections in water or something.

[Alarial]

No your incorrect assumption was thinking that what Ichigo is now has anything at all to do with FGT. FGT is completely separate from anything else, until proven differently. All FGT is, is becoming Getsuga.

I think this is where the misunderstanding is coming out.

No one, including myself, is claiming that Ichigo's trancendent form/combined spirit form has anything to do with FGT. We're all agreeing the FGT is just a super shonen technique where he becomes Getsuga and loses his powers as a sacrifice.

What we're talking about, is the MASSIVE power boost Ichigo displayed after his FGT training (but before he used FGT). This power boost derived from Ichigo being stabbed by the merged Bachgetsu and Whitey, finally accepting that both of them are his powers.

When he first encountered Aizen after the training, Aizen couldn't even sense Ichigo's spirit pressure, similar to how the other Soul Reapers couldn't sense Aizen's pressure. Aizen postulated that Ichigo had reached a level even beyond him.

http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Ichigo_...5%8Dsuke_Aizen

Ichigo was further shown to have merged with his Zanpakuto (it was part of his right arm).

http://images.wikia.com/bleach/en/im...go_injures.png

Ichigo was additionally shown to have destroyed an entire mountain by just casually deflecting Aizen's blade.

http://images.wikia.com/bleach/en/im..._destroyed.png

That level of power was assumed to be Ichigo in trancendent form. It had nothing to do with Ichigo's FGT technique (and honestly it seemed silly that Ichigo even used FGT, given that he seemed to already outclass Aizen).

Hence our current frustration: Ichigo went god mode by realizing his power was both Whitey and Bachgetsu as one, and his form was a badass tattoo'd bankai mode with a connected sword (trancendent mode). Now, Ichigo has the SAME realization, but now knows Bachgetsu was really his Quincy side.. And we get a totally different representation of his power (dual swords) and a totally different level of power (yes, it's speculation that he's not in god mode anymore, or painted as a trancendent being).

I'm fine with calling it a Kubo plot inconsistency, I'm just not agreeing with other currently offered explanations for the inconsistency.

@Fantansticdan: I thought Aizen's Zanpakuto was actually a Kido based Zanpakuto (it controlled all 5 senses) and not actually a water based Zanpakuto. He just convinced people in the soul society that his sword was a simple water based sword so people wouldn't realize his true god like power of complete hyponosis.

[fantasticdan]

Kyoka Suigetsu is probably not related to Zangetsu or Engetsu. I think the moon in the name is a reference to reflections in water or something.

I dunno how you quoted the wrong name, but no I don't they're related either, because I don't buy the familial shinigami powers thing. But if you do buy that, than aizen's zankpakuto seems like a big red flag, especially considering his position in the story + tropes.

As far as I know, zangetsu and engetsu can be interpreted was waxing and waning moon (I forget which for which), and suigetsu as the moons reflection on water.

[Gredival]

but no I don't they're related either, because I don't buy the familial shinigami powers thing. But if you do buy that, than aizen's zankpakuto seems like a big red flag, especially considering his position in the story + tropes.

As far as I know, zangetsu and engetsu can be interpreted was waxing and waning moon (I forget which for which), and suigetsu as the moons reflection on water.

I mean how do you explain Ichigo and Isshin then? I mean the point is just because moon is in the name doesn't mean it's part of the moon family.

En- is fire, so knowing the context of the Burn command, it's like Scathing Moon or something. Zan- is slayer, so Moon Slayer. Sui- is water, but with the context of Kyoka it refers to the moon reflecting on the water yes.

This power boost derived from Ichigo being stabbed by the merged Bachgetsu and Whitey, finally accepting that both of them are his powers.

All we know at this point is that he accepts "Zangetsu" as part of him, realizing the blade comes from him and cannot hurt him. "Zangetsu" may have been merged from Shiro at that point, but Ichigo's understanding of Shiro is a mystery here. The last time he saw White was when he fought it for dominance in terms of its Hollow powers for Vaizard form.

As far as his "transcendent form" -- I'm going to go out on a limb and say this is a precursor form to FGT.

After being hit with Mugetsu, Aizen's Kyoka Suigetsu disappears and he says this is a result of simply not needing a Zanpaktou (i.e. removing the barrier between the Zanpaktou and the Shinigami). In Ichigo's case is different though, and Zangetsu disappears as it no longer necessary as a medium of power between Ichigo and Getsuga.

Prior to that though, we see that Ichigo's hand is fused with Tensa Zangetsu and Aizen's is fused with Kyoka Suigetsu. Aizen remarked at the point their evolutions had both converged on a similar form, having removed one barrier between Shinigami and Zanpaktou. Then remember when Ichigo loses his power, Rukia states that part of the process in Ichigo losing is powers is reversal of all the changes since he started FGT training (his height and hair).

As I said before, he let "Zangetsu" stab him. This doesn't mean he understood anything about his Hollow, his Quincy, etc. So what we probably saw was a a higher realization of his Shinigami powers as a result of breaking down the barriers between him and Zangetsu as part of the greater FGT technique as a whole. Whether he was still being dampened by his Quincy power is anyone's guess. For all we know, his "final form" could have been even stronger had he known his tri-nature, the relationship between the elements of Zangetsu (Shiro the Hollow, Juha the Quiny, and the true Zangetsu Shiro is merged into).

[Yugl]

The "En" doesn't mean fire. The kanji means "Sharp". You're thinking of when he released his weapon and said "Burn Engetsu." I don't know where to find the JP raw, but the JP would clear up what type of burning.

Edit: Error on the surudoi use, but the kanji use was right.

[kuronosan]

Yea no alarial, that's unfortunately a retcon.

[Souj]

You know, there is a distinction between Zangetsu when Ichigo was God Mode and Zangetsu is dual swords.
Normal Ichigo is one sword but two spirits fighting over each other to control that sword (not what's actually happening, but an easy way of explaining it)
God Mode Zangetsu was Hollow and Bach fused into a brand new entity
Dual Sword Zangetsu is both Hollow and Bach separate, thus the two swords.

[Tymon]

I've given up debating/speculating the posts that Alarial and a couple others have gone down. I hold the same aggravation over it, but I don't think it's possible to discern anything other than an assumption at this point.

It's either a retcon or something that will be explained eventually. At this point I don't care. It is rather annoying though.