Hauteclaire and Aegis?

[Krandor]

I'm not taking sides here, just an honest question. Is there a "ceiling" on the amount of +enmity from gear you can effectively wear? (and how can you tell one way or the other?)

I'm not a tank, but I believe there is a "hate cap" of some sort where additional actions don't actually generate extra hate. As long as you do enough stuff, you can put yourself at the top of the hate list with "max" hate. The only way to "lose" hate is if you take damage, get Hate reset (Horrid Roar), or stop doing stuff to maintain your current hate level.

So +Enmity will help you gain hate faster, but once you reach the cap it's not really all that useful.

Again, I'm not a tank so this might be completely wrong.

I've done some testing of sorts with Wafik comparing RDM/NIN vs. PLD/NIN tanking hate, and while I don't know if there is literally a cap on hate, you can definitely take it high enough to the point where hate is more or less capped for whatever you're trying to do.

I think in most HNM situations the only way you can reach an effective hate "cap" is thru Mazurka spamming

I don't know if theres a "cap" persay, but theres certainely an obvious point of diminishing return for +enmity gear. Anything over +35 really and I stop seeing a difference compared to the hate I'm holding over other tanks.

Which, in turn, leads you to look for other ways to maintain your hate instead of just stacking the enmity. Magic and physical dmg reduction seems like the logical step, and as long as you don't sacrifice too much enmity on pld/nin, you'll end up with more hate control in the long run.

I've started fighting mobs in full enmity gear, and after the first 5-10 minutes slowly changed out into MDB gear to pre-empt most wses.

Hauteclaire is only going to see any use on pld/not nin though.

More or less why I just don't view the sword as very useful. The situations these days where I use PLD/WAR are typically kiting something (whoring Enmity there...), if I feel like going to Dynamis as PLD/WAR instead of a DD job (whoring enmity there assuming I want to tank and not just call mobs....) and maybe while Sky farming or something (again, whoring enmity since most of those mobs die fast).

Any real endurance kind of fight these days where the Damage reduction might come into play I'm pretty much going to be sticking with Mac+1 and /NIN

[Xavier]

Its useless for most people, but I'm sure you can understand why it might interest me.

[Talint]

Okay, I suppose this begs the question: Which events should a PLD come /WAR, and which events should a PLD come /NIN?

I'll admit, I've never tried /NIN very much outside of meritpoint parties. It seems it would be a good idea for greater wyrms and other HNMs, but for an event like Dynamis, it seems unnecessary. Also, from the linkshells I've been in/seen, many seem pretty timid about giving /NIN a try.

I wouldn't be so dismissive of a Hauteclare, but that's just me. As it stands, I can get up to 30ish or so +enmity and 300+ shield skill without even seriously trying before a Maca+1. Getting an extra -7% physical damage makes it that much better, in a weapon slot that was formerly dominated by a -20% staff (I, in fact, still have mine ). I think it'd make a nice addition next to my Maca+1 and Joyeuse, and rotating the swords around as the situation deems necessary.

[Krandor]

Its useless for most people, but I'm sure you can understand why it might interest me.

Get Nikkei interested in you again and not just your shield?

/hides from fear of the Ban.

To answer the above, the mobs/events I use PLD/WAR on these days are

KB/KB KS99
Dynamis (but would rather be on NIN to add damage)
Sky Farming (not gods though)
Ix'mnk
Ouryu (but about to stop doing this, changing to NIN/BRD + manaburning for this)

There might be more but I can't think of any right now. I've been a PLD since NA release and honestly these days I feel weird when I can't put up Utsusemi on the job.

[Dion]

weak shit like faf/limbus/dynamis/and the rare occasion we do jormungand is the only time i use /war and hautclaire. /nin and mac+1 for the rest.

[Nikkei]

Its useless for most people, but I'm sure you can understand why it might interest me.

Get Nikkei interested in you again and not just your shield?

/hides from fear of the Ban.

The shield doesn't yell at me when it goes 5 seconds without haste or refresh.

[RKenshin]

That's the best part of it all and you know it.

[Blackice]

Okay, I suppose this begs the question: Which events should a PLD come /WAR, and which events should a PLD come /NIN?

I'll admit, I've never tried /NIN very much outside of meritpoint parties. It seems it would be a good idea for greater wyrms and other HNMs, but for an event like Dynamis, it seems unnecessary. Also, from the linkshells I've been in/seen, many seem pretty timid about giving /NIN a try.

I wouldn't be so dismissive of a Hauteclare, but that's just me. As it stands, I can get up to 30ish or so +enmity and 300+ shield skill without even seriously trying before a Maca+1. Getting an extra -7% physical damage makes it that much better, in a weapon slot that was formerly dominated by a -20% staff (I, in fact, still have mine ). I think it'd make a nice addition next to my Maca+1 and Joyeuse, and rotating the swords around as the situation deems necessary.

Dynamis is really the only place PLD/WARs shine, IMO. Even then I don't use PLD there often. I usually go as WAR/NIN since we plow so quickly. My PLD comes out for things like Cerberus, Fafnir, Jailers/AV, Omega/Ultima. So to me, Hauteclaire would serve only a couple purposes, Town-gear obviously, Dynamis, "ohshit" macro for when shadows go down, and that's about it. I don't use sword/shield on PLD/NIN, most people know that. I prefer Capricorn Staff for the +5% Haste. Then again, I have Hydra Haubert to make up for the enmity. To each their own really, there is no right or wrong setup for PLD/NIN.

This thread is highly laughable though, I'm glad someone went so far out of their way to try and make myself and my linkshell look bad.

[Krandor]

weak shit like faf/limbus/dynamis/and the rare occasion we do jormungand is the only time i use /war and hautclaire. /nin and mac+1 for the rest.

Since my LS doesn't camp Faf too terribly often (though we just killed the last 3 on Asura....), I hadn't really had much of a chance to ever try /NIN for it. But finally got a chance these last few days and I honestly liked it alot more then /WAR.

I've read people commenting about how since for some LSs Faf is a beat down asap kind of deal that PLD/NIN doesn't have enough time to build steady hate, but we killed the two I was at in about 12 minutes and 19 minutes respectively and had basically 0 hate problems until the usual mini zerg fest right at the end

[Dion]

our ls is like that. when we do camp kings which is rarely, its a race to see how fast we can kill it. i dont think i'd have enough time to get hate /nin, but i've never tried it.

[Rabidmonkey]

This thread is highly laughable though, I'm glad someone went so far out of their way to try and make myself and my linkshell look bad.

I think the opposite happened here... usually does..

[Xavier]

our ls is like that. when we do camp kings which is rarely, its a race to see how fast we can kill it. i dont think i'd have enough time to get hate /nin, but i've never tried it.

We've killed Fafnir's in 10 minutes using pld/nin and manaburn, with no hate problems.

Its a fallacy that people think pld/nin takes time to build hate to hold. Mob claimed, sentinel, rampart, flash, wait 24 seconds, flash, and its ready to be damaged.

The biggest perception that pld/nin isn't as good as other tanking options is because people take pld/war gear setups, change their subjob to nin, and act amazed they can't hold hate.

As far as Ouryu goes, we manaburn it using pld/nins with no hate problems, though I really want to just pld/whm it now and spam curaga 2 to deal with its wses.

I don't use sword/shield on PLD/NIN, most people know that. I prefer Capricorn Staff for the +5% Haste. Then again, I have Hydra Haubert to make up for the enmity. To each their own really, there is no right or wrong setup for PLD/NIN.

I'd disagree that there is no "wrong" setup for pld/nin, there definately are. Haste/Enmity over anything else.

I'm kind of curious how you guys do pld/nin, since 5% haste in the weapon slot would put me over the haste cap at the cost of 4 (previously 7) enmity.

[Therin]

I just recently bought a Templar Mace, about a week ago, and honestly I've been using that a ton. I'd still use Macuahuitl +1 for stuff like Cerberus where I don't really take that much damage, but for mobs like Khimaira, aerial wyrms, and Long-Bowed Chariot (done that fight twice recently, tons of fun) where it's pretty hard to keep shadows up constantly due to AoE spam or you take damage from magic shit, I find the Templar Mace really useful.

I haven't had it long enough to really determine which is better, but I think that Templar Mace is a heavily under-rated item, and people should probably look into it. It seems to be pretty nice.

Oh, and Blackice, you forget something in your bashing of Aegis: It's still major damage reduction. Also, it requires less Shield skill to actually reach that proc cap. So yeah, while a Koenig Shield and an Aegis can proc at the same rate given a large enough amount of shield gear, you can sacrifice a lot of the gear for Enmity+ when you're using an Aegis (not all of it, but some of it). Not only that, but the actual damage reduction from a blocked attack is MUCH better with an Aegis than a Koenig Shield.

[Blackice]

our ls is like that. when we do camp kings which is rarely, its a race to see how fast we can kill it. i dont think i'd have enough time to get hate /nin, but i've never tried it.

We've killed Fafnir's in 10 minutes using pld/nin and manaburn, with no hate problems.

Its a fallacy that people think pld/nin takes time to build hate to hold. Mob claimed, sentinel, rampart, flash, wait 24 seconds, flash, and its ready to be damaged.

The biggest perception that pld/nin isn't as good as other tanking options is because people take pld/war gear setups, change their subjob to nin, and act amazed they can't hold hate.

As far as Ouryu goes, we manaburn it using pld/nins with no hate problems, though I really want to just pld/whm it now and spam curaga 2 to deal with its wses.

I don't use sword/shield on PLD/NIN, most people know that. I prefer Capricorn Staff for the +5% Haste. Then again, I have Hydra Haubert to make up for the enmity. To each their own really, there is no right or wrong setup for PLD/NIN.

I'd disagree that there is no "wrong" setup for pld/nin, there definately are.

I'm kind of curious how you guys do pld/nin, since 5% haste in the weapon slot would put me over the haste cap at the cost of 4 (previously 7) enmity.

Hmm, my gear puts me at +23% raw haste, with Loq earring (1.5% haste, not a hard number though) and the Fast Cast on Homam legs (2.5% again, not a hard number) added up that's +27%, but because of the 1.5% and 2.5% not being hard, ends up rounding down to right at about +25% which is haste gear cap obviously. As for enmity, I end up with +22. I'd use Bahamut's mask over Turban, but I don't have a speed belt yet, only swift. Once I get +6% on the waist I'm going to change that around.

As for PLD/NIN on Fafnir, I've done it once and yeah it's extremely easy to hold hate and let BLMs go crazy, I was PLD/NIN with a PLD/WAR and NIN/WAR co-tanks and they only saw hate once or twice during the entire fight.

Edit: Therin, I wasn't bashing on Aegis in the first place.

[Therin]

Maybe a bad choice of words - you said that it probably wasn't worth the currency required to get it. I would definitely have to disagree.

[Sylphet]

The shield doesn't yell at me when it goes 5 seconds without haste or refresh.

You get 5 seconds?.. lucky =( these bastards (Ruke and Ice) yell at me if it wears mid cast.

[Ryko]

I should be a bigger hardass about that shit lol >_> I'm probably one of the least vocal PLDs when it comes to shit, I'll do my job but hey if you don't wanna tag me with a refresh or leave haste down for god knows how long don't be surprised when things get lopsided for a couple seconds. The second someone starts giving me shit I'm like "alright if you want be to be a bigger dick about lacking haste, refresh, or the occasional 'oh fuck I'm terrored' cure then so be it"

[Xavier]

Macuahuitl +1, Aegis, Lamian Kaman +1, Ethereal Earring / Hades +1, Sattva Ring / Hercules' Ring, Resentment Cape / Lamia Mantle +1, Bahamut's Mask, Harmonia's Torque, Valor Surcoat, Homam manopolas, Homam cosciales, Homam gambieras, Swiftbelt.

That setup gives me +32 MDB (+31 outside of conquest zones where resentment works), +36 Enmity (4 merits), 14% haste. Stacked with double march and haste (spell), it brings flash down to 24ish seconds.

I sub in Shield Torque / Gallant Leggings +1, and either Boxer's Mantle or Shadow Mantle when shadows go down to minimize damage taken.

I personally think this is close to perfect, switching swiftbelt for speedbelt to basically be at the haste cap.

Looking at your post, I'm kind of confused.

Do you guys not use a bard and haste while tanking on pld/nin? I can't see the point in sacrificing so much enmity for actual haste gear. Turban on pld......I don't think pld/nin is very well understood at all...

[Krandor]

PLD/WAR = don't care, not bitching.

PLD/NIN = constant whining to have Refresh/Haste up

But that's just me at least

At Xavier's post, I typically use Turban on Mobs where shadows going down can get me killed, like Tiamat, and if dual tanking (instead of 3 tanks) Cerberus.

[Xavier]

PLD/WAR = don't care, not bitching.

PLD/NIN = constant whining to have Refresh/Haste up

But that's just me at least

For me:

PLD/WAR = oh hey look I'm dying, isn't that funny

PLD/NIN = JESUS FKING CHRIST I AM CASTING ICHI ABOUT TO DIE.

More than that though, taking 32% less damage from all magic attacks from just my gear, while maintaining a 23-24 second flash/ni with 2x march + haste, while having +36 enmity is pretty godly.

The whole "Koenig can proc as much as Aegis" argument is kind of missing the point when a 100 dmg hit with Koenig turns into 70 and with Aegis into 20, not to mention Aegis needing far less skill to actually proc that much.

If someone wants to argue that Aegis simply costs a lot of of money, ok, but I think the bigger picture is being missed if you try to compare Koenig to Aegis head to head.