This shit's enough to make me go vegetarian

[Kuya]

@Kuya - it's not the ecsaping of a 'reality' or your 'known american' reality or even death. Its personal belief, like a golden rule type thing. Some people would have a problem buying diamonds after seeing a movie like Blood Diamond or eatting pork after seeing babe or charolette's web.... Its escaping a naturally feeling of regred or remorse for doing something. John Robins in New Diet for america says that most american kill 81 animals (all types) to life a 'normal' life in one year. It's living a life you feel happy about, and that's it

First im not american, and second yes i do feel remorse, killing isn't fun, i know i would not want to die. This is why (when i remember) to pray for my food, not in a religious sense, but in thanks because of their demise I continue to exist. Something must die, in order for something else to live, this is how nature itself balances itself out.

@stilgar - Vegetarians draw a line in the sand. It's like a person who believes in human rights and fights in africa or where ever... You try as hard as you can to live a 'normal' life and you have to pick where you draw the line. Plants are alive and in a spiritual sense I think they dont have souls, and I know for a fact that 99%+ dont feel pain or have nervous systems like ours. If you have a pet cat and you go out side and try to play with a flower. Common sense tells you that a Cat and a Plant or 2 different enities.

If the argument (not yours, but somebody elses) is that its ok to kill plants for food becuase they feel no pain, then i will refute it by saying: Well if i end the animals life inmediatly, it will not feel pain also, you can't argue with that. If another argument is to say that plants have no souls so its ok to kill them, then i will simply have to call that person presumptious. We have not yet found a way to precisely decide what does not and what has a soul. You yourself said religion is bullshit, and believing anything has a soul at this point is also based on faith, not a fact. A plant could have a soul, or it could not, if it does, then vegetarians are also comiting murder. If animals (including humans) have souls is not even proven yet, because the soul is a very ambigous idea.

In the end even i still wonder if i still need to eat meat (i look for info on it everynow and then), but you cannot yet expect humanity to move away from meat, its too early and we haven't quite fixed out al the kinks. Not to mention human beings still cant mostly get along with eachother, so to expect humanity to respect nature is still well beyond our learning curve.

[Gregorio]

people that can watch others being killed, kill people themselves, kill animals themselves, abuse children, rape women, hunt animals, pick on weaker people, push people around at work, and all of the other insecruities that people mask.... are sad and lost. It's either a lack of morals in an environment or DNA make-up that makes them precomposed to be assholes, but ya...

I love how you lump in hunting with rape and murder. Thankfully those souless godless Native Americans are practically extinct, they and their ancestors killed more animals than slaughterhouses! They could have survived on corn and other veggies!

If anything you should have a problem with people who don't hunt for their own food more than us insecure hunters. Free roaming deer, turkeys, etc. have much better lives than the ones raised strictly for food. And I'm sorry if I prefer to know exactly where my meat comes from if I have the choice, rahter than eat hormone injected, genetically fucked animals that are grown for slaughter.

Oh, and game animals are pests. Deer are way overpopulated in many areas, ruin farmers crops, kill young trees [only mentioned this because they eat any baby trees I try to grow at my cabin], and kill/injure lots of people every year in car accidents. The last part isn't exactly their fault, but just goes to show you that they are pests. Also, when animals are overpopulated many end up starving to death. I'd rather take a bullet to the heart than have my stomach digest itself.

[Galen]

I love how you lump in hunting with rape and murder. Thankfully those souless godless Native Americans are practically extinct, they and their ancestors killed more animals than slaughterhouses! They could have survived on corn and other veggies!

See the difference between your example and our NEED to eat meat can be explained by population. I'm not sure how you can suggest that native americans killed more bison annually than we slaughter cattle, considering the vast difference in populations.

Oh, and game animals are pests. Deer are way overpopulated in many areas, ruin farmers crops, kill young trees [only mentioned this because they eat any baby trees I try to grow at my cabin], and kill/injure lots of people every year in car accidents. The last part isn't exactly their fault, but just goes to show you that they are pests. Also, when animals are overpopulated many end up starving to death. I'd rather take a bullet to the heart than have my stomach digest itself.

Why not switch it around and say humans as a species are the overpopulated. Sure we haven't reached our carrying capacity as a species globally, but regionally we sure have. If we want to be able to take care of this country and be able to still grow at a safe rate, we'll most likely need to change our lifestyles to accomodate and provide for that increased population size, ie be more resourceful and use land grown for livestock feed for human food.

[rooster]

I love how you lump in hunting with rape and murder. Thankfully those souless godless Native Americans are practically extinct, they and their ancestors killed more animals than slaughterhouses! They could have survived on corn and other veggies!

See the difference between your example and our NEED to eat meat can be explained by population. I'm not sure how you can suggest that native americans killed more bison annually than we slaughter cattle, considering the vast difference in populations.

[quote:d39d7]Oh, and game animals are pests. Deer are way overpopulated in many areas, ruin farmers crops, kill young trees [only mentioned this because they eat any baby trees I try to grow at my cabin], and kill/injure lots of people every year in car accidents. The last part isn't exactly their fault, but just goes to show you that they are pests. Also, when animals are overpopulated many end up starving to death. I'd rather take a bullet to the heart than have my stomach digest itself.

Why not switch it around and say humans as a species are the overpopulated. Sure we haven't reached our carrying capacity as a species globally, but regionally we sure have. If we want to be able to take care of this country and be able to still grow at a safe rate, we'll most likely need to change our lifestyles to accomodate and provide for that increased population size, ie be more resourceful and use land grown for livestock feed for human food.[/quote:d39d7]

QFT

it's much more resourceful to be vegetarain, the amount of land we use to 'grow' or 'raise' cattle, and the water consumtion for 1 lb of beef compaired to 1 lb of soy beans or apples is a fking shock.

I'll say it again, i feel like these are quotes from people that say what they feel from they heart, but what ever angle you go at vegetarianism is better for the environment, health, and for the animals.

In america though most people dont give a shit about the environment, health, or animals. It really took me to live in another country to realize it too.

[rooster]

also if you are still using opo-opo crown at this point in the game you fail at FFXI too.

.....M
.....O
....\ l /U
......l
..._/ \_ <---(Gregorio with a sexy harp and Opo-Opo Crown)

go google vegetarian facts or the go to pages like

http://www.vegsoc.org/info/health1.html

to look stuff up.


You wana know something though, I'll bet a $100 you wont.

[Alleya]

Vegitarianism is a life choice. Wheather you think you were "born with it" (you weren't, but whatever you want to tell yourself) or not, wheather you think you're doing some kind of good by not eating meat or not, it's your choice. Eating meat is my choice. I don't tell you that you can't not eat meat. Stop telling me I'm wrong for doing it. This is exactly the problem that people who are labeled anti-vegitarian have with vegitarians: the vast majority of them cannot shut the fuck up about how they don't eat meat.

Vegitarians: You can order food and not talk about what you're getting. You can keep your mouth shut when I say I want a burger. You can eat nothing but salads and vegtables at every meal we have together from now until the end of time and I will never notice. I will never care. You are the only person who cares what anyone else is eating. You are not opressed. You are not discriminated against. If you don't want some meat someone offers you, just say "no thanks". Exactly like I do when someone offers me broccoli. Stop behaving like vegitarianism is the next suffrage. It's your choice, only your choice, and it doesn't make you any more qualified to stick your nose in my business. You are not special.

If you want to complain about animal rights and animal suffering, you can do a lot better than the fast food industry, trust me. All you have to do is come down from your ivory tower, get off your ass, and do some research. I suggest starting in cosmetic animal testing. Cutting off the eyelids of rabbits and applying mascara directly to their cornea, while they are alive, unsedated, and aware is pretty nice.

[Vixy]

also if you are still using opo-opo crown at this point in the game you fail at FFXI too.

.....M
.....O
....\ l /U
......l
..._/ \_ <---(Gregorio with a sexy harp and Opo-Opo Crown)

go google vegetarian facts or the go to pages like

http://www.vegsoc.org/info/health1.html

to look stuff up.


You wana know something though, I'll bet a $100 you wont.

http://www.vegsoc.org/info/health1.html

Looks like a bunch of made up BS to me.

[archibaldcrane]

also if you are still using opo-opo crown at this point in the game you fail at FFXI too.

.....M
.....O
....\ l /U
......l
..._/ \_ <---(Gregorio with a sexy harp and Opo-Opo Crown)

go google vegetarian facts or the go to pages like

http://www.vegsoc.org/info/health1.html

to look stuff up.


You wana know something though, I'll bet a $100 you wont.

http://www.vegsoc.org/info/health1.html

Looks like a bunch of made up BS to me.

Wonderful response.

I eat meat of all sorts, but I recognize that eating less meat and more fruits and vegetables would be eating healthier given my current diet (I'm a very normal 5'11 175 lbs), reducing my chances of heart disease and certain cancers at the very least.

While it can be difficult to get -all- the proteins and amino acids you need while eating as a vegetarian, it's possible, and considering the insanely high % of overweight and obese people in america, most would significantly benefit health-wise from a vegetarian diet over what they're eating right now even if they were missing some proteins or amino acids. It's ok to admit that vegetarianism would be better for most people, health-wise, and still want to eat meat. That's what freedom is for.

[Koyuki]

@Koyuki - Nice dude you rock

You do not have to repeat what I already know.

[miokomioko]

Perhaps I'm going to the 7th circle of Hell, where the rest of the omnivores go, but I'm not kidding when I say this thread never fails to make me hungry for a good New York Strip or Bacon-wrapped Filet Mignon.

[Gregorio]

I love how you lump in hunting with rape and murder. Thankfully those souless godless Native Americans are practically extinct, they and their ancestors killed more animals than slaughterhouses! They could have survived on corn and other veggies!

See the difference between your example and our NEED to eat meat can be explained by population. I'm not sure how you can suggest that native americans killed more bison annually than we slaughter cattle, considering the vast difference in populations.

[quote:d88bf]Oh, and game animals are pests. Deer are way overpopulated in many areas, ruin farmers crops, kill young trees [only mentioned this because they eat any baby trees I try to grow at my cabin], and kill/injure lots of people every year in car accidents. The last part isn't exactly their fault, but just goes to show you that they are pests. Also, when animals are overpopulated many end up starving to death. I'd rather take a bullet to the heart than have my stomach digest itself.

Why not switch it around and say humans as a species are the overpopulated. Sure we haven't reached our carrying capacity as a species globally, but regionally we sure have. If we want to be able to take care of this country and be able to still grow at a safe rate, we'll most likely need to change our lifestyles to accomodate and provide for that increased population size, ie be more resourceful and use land grown for livestock feed for human food.[/quote:d88bf]

I brought up Native Americans because of his comment about how hunting is unethical (ignoring the fact that there is no universal code for ethics). One group kills for food and it's okay, another group kills for food and they're just like murders and rapists. And if you couldn't tell, it was sarcasm, I wasn't seriously suggesting that Native Americans killed more animals than we do today.

Your point about humans being overpopulated has nothing to do with anything I said. Going vegetarian will not reduce the population. Not hunting will not reduce the population. And regionally our "carrying capacity" is just fine. At least in my state as of a few months ago, 75% of Pennsylvania was still forrested. I know it's not a much different story nationally.

[Marsala]

Fry your own chicken? It's not THAT difficult. And it'll be worlds better than KFC.

I dunno man I have nver had fried chicken like KFC. And those mashed potatoes rock, mmmm.

[Gregorio]

also if you are still using opo-opo crown at this point in the game you fail at FFXI too.

.....M
.....O
....\ l /U
......l
..._/ \_ <---(Gregorio with a sexy harp and Opo-Opo Crown)

go google vegetarian facts or the go to pages like

http://www.vegsoc.org/info/health1.html

to look stuff up.


You wana know something though, I'll bet a $100 you wont.

A. Not like it matters to this conversation, but no, I don't still use Opo-opo crown. You know how to do something that looks like a AF2 hat just using letters? Also, I made the sig like 2 years ago when I first signed up for these forums. I don't feel like changing it. I fail at FFXI "too"? What else are you suggesting I fail at?

B. Do you read what people type before you reply? PLEASE tell me when I bashed vegetarian lifestyles, or even denied it could be healthier. If you had actually taken the 10 seconds to read what I wrote you'd see I only had a problem with you bashing hunters. You wanna be a vegetarian go for it, I'm not trying to stop you or even convince you otherwise.

C. You owe me $100.

[Kazen]

also if you are still using opo-opo crown at this point in the game you fail at FFXI too.

.....M
.....O
....\ l /U
......l
..._/ \_ <---(Gregorio with a sexy harp and Opo-Opo Crown)

go google vegetarian facts or the go to pages like

http://www.vegsoc.org/info/health1.html

to look stuff up.


You wana know something though, I'll bet a $100 you wont.

A. Not like it matters to this conversation, but no, I don't still use Opo-opo crown. You know how to do something that looks like a AF2 hat just using letters? I fail at FFXI "too"? What else are you suggesting I fail at?

B. Do you read what people type before you reply? PLEASE tell me when I bashed vegetarian lifestyles, or even denied it could be healthier. If you had actually taken the 10 seconds to read what I wrote you'd see I only had a problem with you bashing hunters. You wanna be a vegetarian go for it, I'm not trying to stop you or even convince you otherwise.

C. You owe me $100.

Its because most Vegetarians want to play world police, it basically comes down to a life choice, some choose to eat meat, others chose not to. Vegetarians just need to leave people who like meat alone, I dont tell you what Veggies to eat, so dont try to tell me what meat i will and will not eat.

[Gregorio]

QFT

it's much more resourceful to be vegetarain, the amount of land we use to 'grow' or 'raise' cattle, and the water consumtion for 1 lb of beef compaired to 1 lb of soy beans or apples is a fking shock.

Does water consumtion really matter? Are we running out of water now? Last I checked we've had just about the same amount of water on the earth now as we did a couple billion years ago. Droughts are temporary, and they aren't exactly raising cattle in areas where water is hard to come by.

As for the land argument, you're assuming that the land that the cattle are being raised on is the same as the land where crops are grown. It's not. You can't plant crops anywhere you feel like, the land has to be optimum for the crop. You also can't grow many crops in cold areas. Cows do just fine in the snow.

Again, I'm not bashing your lifestyle choice. Just pointing out flaws in your logic.

[Galen]

Your point about humans being overpopulated has nothing to do with anything I said. Going vegetarian will not reduce the population. Not hunting will not reduce the population. And regionally our "carrying capacity" is just fine. At least in my state as of a few months ago, 75% of Pennsylvania was still forrested. I know it's not a much different story nationally.

Sure, still forested, but like you said, what caused the overpopulation of deer? Could it be perhaps that our society deems it correct to destroy the deer's natural predators in order to ensure our livestock?

I'm all for hunting of deer, but you're making it out to be a natural problem that would have occurred had humans not become so overly involved is my problem.

We could argue all day long, but we as a species are threatening this planets biodiversity, be it from our industry, food sources (and yes, I know a lot of the environment's problems come from plant foods), and our general lifestyles.

I could care less whether you like meat or not, and I'm trying to look at this objectively when I'm posting here.

[Kazen]

Your point about humans being overpopulated has nothing to do with anything I said. Going vegetarian will not reduce the population. Not hunting will not reduce the population. And regionally our "carrying capacity" is just fine. At least in my state as of a few months ago, 75% of Pennsylvania was still forrested. I know it's not a much different story nationally.

Sure, still forested, but like you said, what caused the overpopulation of deer? Could it be perhaps that our society deems it correct to destroy the deer's natural predators in order to ensure our livestock?

I'm all for hunting of deer, but you're making it out to be a natural problem that would have occurred had humans not become so overly involved is my problem.

We could argue all day long, but we as a species are threatening this planets biodiversity, be it from our industry, food sources (and yes, I know a lot of the environment's problems come from plant foods), and our general lifestyles.

I could care less whether you like meat or not, and I'm trying to look at this objectively when I'm posting here.

Objectively?? your ideals are jaded at best. Ever look at the kind of teeth meat eatting animals have, now lets look at humans.... Hey wait!! I think i see something similar, they have both!! We must have been made to eat both meat and veggies, can it be!!? Could it possibly mean we're meant to eat both and the arguements are pointless, oh wait that cant be it can it, much to simple and makes to much sense.

[Gregorio]

Your point about humans being overpopulated has nothing to do with anything I said. Going vegetarian will not reduce the population. Not hunting will not reduce the population. And regionally our "carrying capacity" is just fine. At least in my state as of a few months ago, 75% of Pennsylvania was still forrested. I know it's not a much different story nationally.

Sure, still forested, but like you said, what caused the overpopulation of deer? Could it be perhaps that our society deems it correct to destroy the deer's natural predators in order to ensure our livestock?

I'm all for hunting of deer, but you're making it out to be a natural problem that would have occurred had humans not become so overly involved is my problem.

We could argue all day long, but we as a species are threatening this planets biodiversity, be it from our industry, food sources (and yes, I know a lot of the environment's problems come from plant foods), and our general lifestyles.

I could care less whether you like meat or not, and I'm trying to look at this objectively when I'm posting here.

The deers natural predators are few and far between, and the predators aren't really even hunted by humans, so we're not destroying their predators. Mountain lions, coyotes, and maybe a few other species are really the only ones. Deer are overpopulated because less people hunt now than did years ago. That's why, years ago, you didn't really hear about "pest hunts" that happen yearly in many rural areas. Permits are given out to specifically kill deer, elk, and other pests because they really do a number on crops.

Deer overpopulation is a natural problem, just like many other animals.

In a lot of rural areas where farming is big and they have pest problems, farmers and wildlife control agents will actually bring in the pests natural predators to kill off the pests. If this doesn't screw up the regions careful biological balance then I don't know what does. Maybe we should be campaigning against vegetarians for eating so many crops, if they would just eat meat then issues like that might not be a problem! (sarcasm, by the way)

Humans are definitely affecting the planets biodiversity, but vegetarians are just as much at fault as the next guy.

[miokomioko]

I find it slightly ironic that we hunt and kill wild animals so vegetarians can have their cabbage.

[Galen]

Objectively?? your ideals are jaded at best. Ever look at the kind of teeth meat eatting animals have, now lets look at humans.... Hey wait!! I think i see something similar, they have both!! We must have been made to eat both meat and veggies, can it be!!? Could it possibly mean we're meant to eat both and the arguements are pointless, oh wait that cant be it can it, much to simple and makes to much sense.

You're missing what I'm saying, so I'll say it again, regardless of our equipment, we should recognize a potential problem and possibly act now to hinder it's development. If you forgot the problem I'm talking about, it's not about whether our meat industry is providing an unnatural food source, it's that it's providing it the wrong way.

Deer overpopulation is a natural problem, just like many other animals.

Again, it's a unnatural problem if we're the source of it. Introduction of animals to a non-native environment with no predation causes those species to surpace thier K, and often crash. During those periods where they are above thier K, they're destructive, and this is what you're talking about, whether it be deer eating our crops or causing accidents.

Granted, deer are native to this area, but over thier predators have been wiped our by human involvment, whether here or out west.

Most often it's not the species natural predator, but one that is non-native and thus that's destroying the "balance".

Humans are definitely affecting the planets biodiversity, but vegetarians are just as much at fault as the next guy.

True enough, even though it sucks, a good portion of soy is grown in tropical rainforests. Granted, I believe a lot of that soy grown is put towards livestock feed.