Guillotine double-attacks (Ruke read this!)

[Khamsin]

But, later some DRKs did a few tests on TW mobs and their DA rates came out to around 40%, which when you factor in the accuracy cap supports that every swing does have a chance to DA.

what kind of TW mobs, I wonder...

But yeah, after that discussion and some testing myself as well as results of others I saw, I'm pretty sure that's how it works. Each swing of a WS seems to have a chance to DA. Since then I've also noticed a lot of 6 and 7 hit Guillotines that have the TP returns and the damage to support it. It actually happens pretty often as long as my accuracy as high. Same with Raging Rush.

It's actually hard to look the evidence by the number. The most concrete evidence to see whether multiple DA/TA proc on WS or not is to see the TP bar as soon as the WS unleashed

Wouldn't the damage be reliable if you found out what your capped damage was on a TW ronfaure rabbit such that it repeats, then look specifically for the damage that would correspond to a full damage 7 hit Guillotine? You might miss some that were partial damage on one of the 7 hits, but if you see a full damage 7 hit number in there, then you know its real.

...or at least, it would work if TWs didn't die in the middle of multi-hit WSs.

[VZX]

But, later some DRKs did a few tests on TW mobs and their DA rates came out to around 40%, which when you factor in the accuracy cap supports that every swing does have a chance to DA.

what kind of TW mobs, I wonder...

But yeah, after that discussion and some testing myself as well as results of others I saw, I'm pretty sure that's how it works. Each swing of a WS seems to have a chance to DA. Since then I've also noticed a lot of 6 and 7 hit Guillotines that have the TP returns and the damage to support it. It actually happens pretty often as long as my accuracy as high. Same with Raging Rush.

It's actually hard to look the evidence by the number. The most concrete evidence to see whether multiple DA/TA proc on WS or not is to see the TP bar as soon as the WS unleashed

Wouldn't the damage be reliable if you found out what your capped damage was on a TW ronfaure rabbit such that it repeats, then look specifically for the damage that would correspond to a full damage 7 hit Guillotine? You might miss some that were partial damage on one of the 7 hits, but if you see a full damage 7 hit number in there, then you know its real.

...or at least, it would work if TWs didn't die in the middle of multi-hit WSs.

That would be nice if you have high enough crit% that allows all 7-hit to be executed at once.. (Mighty Strikes... maybe, but that only active for a few seconds). Also... I think every crit doesn't necessarily have pDIF = 3.0 (and this is why it's harder to analyze multi-hit rather than single-hit melee WS)

Edit:
oh wait... I think it's possible to determine from damage whether it's 6-hit or 7-hit WS. But we must assume that pDIF chart is very accurate (it's not, still)

[epigram]

The probability of DA'ing at least once on a weapon skill is:

1-(1-d)^n

where d = Pr(Double Attack) and n = Number of Hits in a weapon skill.

So your going to DA at least once on 23% of your 5 hit ws's with just a brutal. With a 15% DA rate your going to DA at least once on 56% of your weapon skills.

You can easily use a binomial distribution to figure out the probability of DA'ing any number of times. Just be careful using the mean since it wouldn't really be n*p.

d = .05, n = 5
Pr(1 or more DA's) = .2262
Pr(2 or more DA's) = .0226
Pr(3 or more DA's) = .0012
Mean Number of Attacks Per WS = 5.25 (with 100% acc)

d = .15, n = 5
Pr(1 or more DA's) = .5563
Pr(2 or more DA's) = .1648
Pr(3 or more DA's) = .0267
Mean Number of Attacks Per WS = 5.75 (with 100% acc)

d = .25, n = 5
Pr(1 or more DA's) = .7627
Pr(2 or more DA's) = .3672
Pr(3 or more DA's) = .1035
Mean Number of Attacks Per WS = 6.23 (with 100% acc)

d = .50, n = 5
Pr(1 or more DA's) = .9688
Pr(2 or more DA's) = .8125
Pr(3 or more DA's) = .5000
Mean Number of Attacks Per WS = 7.28 (with 100% acc)

Being that Temp axe has a 50% proc rate and I don't renember seeing many 8 hit rampages as bst/whm, I'll assume that sea weapons don't proc on ws.

[RKenshin]

The DA on sea weapons don't count for WS, nor do they for any other multi-hit weapons I know of.

And thanks, that was basically the same math that was posted in that thread, except I think your numbers are more accurate.

But, later some DRKs did a few tests on TW mobs and their DA rates came out to around 40%, which when you factor in the accuracy cap supports that every swing does have a chance to DA.

what kind of TW mobs, I wonder...

If I remember correctly it was the bugards in Misereaux Coast or something.

It's actually hard to look the evidence by the number. The most concrete evidence to see whether multiple DA/TA proc on WS or not is to see the TP bar as soon as the WS unleashed

It actually isn't very hard on DRK.

On DRK every additional swing for a Souleater WS adds a considerable amount of damage (around 400 per swing). I always look at my TP return first, but regardless of that I can just about always tell how many swings I landed just based on the damage I do. The same applies for a MS Raging Rush, and there's no possible way to explain a 2.5k MS RR on a normal mob.

Actually as far as DRK WS go, Cross Reaper is even more noticable than Guillotine. I'd say each DA adds around 500-600 damage, and I've hit stupidly high cross reapers for like 2k out of the blue on exp mobs. Not only does the TP return support it as well as the damage, but all the HP I lose too. D:

EDIT: I took this from my last PT, base return is 18 TP and I have 20 TP in that picture, impying I DAed twice.
http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/6734/ffxi13797um.jpg

[Beckwin]

I'm pretty sure I've seen some 6 hit guillos as well, but its getting really hard for me to keep track of my tp returns switching from /war to /sam all the time, lol. Creaper is great too; think I may have seen a 4 hitter before.

The real killer is when you get a 5 tp return Guillotine. /wrist

[Sidra]

I have landed 7 hit PentaThrusts before but never and 8hit.

Also, in your caclulations you also have to take into account that a hit can miss (eg.. a 4hit guillotine that was hit hit hit miss double attack). This would make it look like a double attack never went off. When you start talking about landing 2 extra hits on a WS, given the fact the the DA's have to proc and all hits have to land...it ends up being a rare occurance but possible.

[Gerion]

And even without Souleater, Guillotine does very reliable damage depending on number of hits, unlike Weapon skills that rely on critical hits. For example, on Sea Puks in Bhaflau, with just food, berserk and Dia II, Guillotine always does between 980 and 1100 to the Puks, and always does around 850 to Mamools. If it does more, in the 1300-1400 range, its a double attack, and so on. Personally, I've had maybe 10 2 double attack Guillotines in my career, and 1 3 double attack Souleatered one that did 2700 damage to a slashing neutral mob.

[Beckwin]

Yeah as long as you can score 4 hits most of the time, you're gonna put up really solid, consistent Guillos. I guess the problem might be DA covering your ass for not having enough acc in your WS setup and fooling you into thinking you're landing all 4 hits really consistently? I think thats worth looking into when it comes to your WS setup, given the pretty high percentage you *should* see on double attacks.

Might try a full acc guillo setup next time I get around to meriting. Ohat, life belt, both rings, and the usual haub+1/galliard.

[aurik]

So if guillo can DA multiple times, follow-up questions:

1) How many chances to DA does Guillo have? 4?
2) What's the maximum number of attacks? Is it capped at 2 DA (6-hit) or if all 4 chances roll DA can it hit 8?
2b) Can we use something like Twicer to show the existence/nonexistence of a cap?
3) What class of weaponskills follow the same DA rule of Guillo? It's pretty well established that many WS can't DA more than once "per hand", does that apply to only 1H and H2H weapons?

[Gerion]

1: I assume Guillotine has 4 chances, but as I have only had 3 Double attacks on my highest Guillo, I can't say for sure, thought it's logical to assume that it can get 1 DA per normal hit.

2: I've seen 7 hits, so I don't see any reason why 8 is forbidden, but it's possible.

2b: Never used a Twicer, but it should work, assuming the DA bonus is high enough to get conclusive proof in a feasible amount of tests.

3: I've gotten only 2 double attacks or more on Guillotine, but on the other hand the other WSs I use have less hits, and Great Sword only has 1 crappy 2 hit WS. DRKs also don't have access to Raging Rush, so getting multiple procs on GAX WSs would depend on Sturmwind, which I never used outside of leveling WAR to 37.

[RKenshin]

So if guillo can DA multiple times, follow-up questions:

1) How many chances to DA does Guillo have? 4?
2) What's the maximum number of attacks? Is it capped at 2 DA (6-hit) or if all 4 chances roll DA can it hit 8?
2b) Can we use something like Twicer to show the existence/nonexistence of a cap?
3) What class of weaponskills follow the same DA rule of Guillo? It's pretty well established that many WS can't DA more than once "per hand", does that apply to only 1H and H2H weapons?

1) 4 I believe is the correct answer since every swing would have a chance to DA, while I'm not sure as to how credible the sources are I have heard of 8 hits. Personally the most I've got is 7, but on the other hand as much as I enjoy DRK I'm rarely on it.

2) I think it would be capped at 8 hit, just like it's believed for other weapon skills.

2b) Unsure, there's no 4 hit weapon skills for Great Axe so I would think the answer is no.

3) I think as far as 2h weapon skills are concerned, every swing you take in the WS has a chance to DA (minus the swings from DAs). However, it would seem that for 1h weapons you can only swing once per hand.

But, one thing about that kind of makes me wonder... Considering that most high end DDs would have maybe an 85% hit-rate in their WS gear (since acc is often switched out), what would be the odds of DAing 3 or 4 times and landing all the hits? Odds would seem to be incredibly low, which could possibly justify it as something that is almost never seen? I've always felt my Rampage Acc was oddly high considering how much accuracy I switched out, but it'd make a lot of sense if that was just because I DAed so often in the WS to cover up misses.

[Khamsin]

I think as far as 1h weapon skills are concerned, every swing you take in the WS has a chance to DA (minus the swings from DAs).

If this is the case, then why haven't any 8-hit Rampages been seen from WAR?

However, it would seem that for 2h weapons you can only swing once per hand.

That would explain the double DA, once for each hand, even though you're not actually holding a weapon in each hand. But then the answer to 1) would be 2 not 4.

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

Personally, I have seen numerous 6 and 7 hit guillos. With WAR sub and brutal earring 5 hit guillos are common.

[aurik]

I never ever saw more than 7 hits on a raging fists, either, and I spent a LOT of time between 40 and 71 using it. I remember being among the first to notice when they stealth-nerfed double attack on WS (around Dec '04) and then later stealth-fixed it.

Furthermore, the chance of 3 DA on Jin (4-hit WS) as nin/war+brutal (15% DA) is:
(4 choose 3) * (.85^1) * (.15^3) = 0.011475
Just over 1%.

At a very conservative (for sushi ninjas anyway) 90% accuracy, .9^7 = 47.8% of the time all 7 strikes will hit.

So if you can DA on every swing, you should see a 7-hit Jin every 200 WS or so.

However since most people never see a 7-hit Jin, this leads to the conclusion that it's not possible.

[RKenshin]

I think as far as 1h weapon skills are concerned, every swing you take in the WS has a chance to DA (minus the swings from DAs).

If this is the case, then why haven't any 8-hit Rampages been seen from WAR?

What? lol

You've never seen an 8 hit Rampage?... I see them all the time, like twice in hour if not more in a normal exp PT. They're pretty common for all WARs I know of, and you can see people post them often on boards.

Are you counting the hits correctly? It's 5 hits from the WS + an additional swing from the off-hand weapon, making 8 hits total if you DA twice. It's pretty common.

However, it would seem that for 2h weapons you can only swing once per hand.

That would explain the double DA, once for each hand, even though you're not actually holding a weapon in each hand. But then the answer to 1) would be 2 not 4.

I made a mistake, I meant it would seem that for 1h weapons you can swing only once for each hand.

[sb]

Can food factor into it? (nero di' sepia)

I made this food as a skill up off of some fish I caught. I used it while skilling staff for fun, and I've seen a few, though rare, DA (as brd/whm w/o any DA gear and a terra's staff).

[Khamsin]

I think as far as 1h weapon skills are concerned, every swing you take in the WS has a chance to DA (minus the swings from DAs).

If this is the case, then why haven't any 8-hit Rampages been seen from WAR?

What? lol

You've never seen an 8 hit Rampage?... I see them all the time, like twice in hour if not more in a normal exp PT. They're pretty common for all WARs I know of, and you can see people post them often on boards.

Are you counting the hits correctly? It's 5 hits from the WS + an additional swing from the off-hand weapon, making 8 hits total if you DA twice. It's pretty common.

Oops, my turn to make a mistake, forgot the offhand hit.

[Sidra]

Given 90% accuracy and assuming it is possible, the chances to land an 8hit guillotine would be {.90*(.15*.9)} happening 4 times in succession

.1215*.1215*.1215*.1215 = .000218. = .02%

Basically 1 in 5000.

Been a long time since I took statistics but I believe that's correct.

Edit: and this is assuming 90% guillotine accuracy and /war sub with brutal earring...basically the best possile case.

[Kirschy]

XPed as drk/war last night, and I happend to parse the battle, and record tp returns. I realize the dataset is small :/.

XP on trolls, BRD was using Min/March mostly. Parsed 94% acc.
312 WS total, 26 were Catastrophe

286 Guillotines.
78 were 5-hit.
11 were 6-hit.

(Everything else was a 1-4 hit guillotine. When the mob didn't seem like it was going to take a full 4 hits, I just Catastrophed for the extra haste. But I realize misses+mob dying before the full hits could go off skew the data. I'm actualli kinda suprised, my 5-hits came more often than I remembered originalli.)

I always assumed all WS were the same /w respect to Double Attacking. Multihit weapons don't proc on WS, and Double/Triple attack can't proc on a Double/Triple. The cap for any weaponskill is 8 hits. I'm not exactly the most knowledgable, but which Weapon Skills (besides 1 and 2 hit WS) are capped to only 1 or 2 Double Attacks?

[Appie]

Sorta ontopic?

Has anybody ever had a 12 TP Asurans with Destroyers? Which looks to me like: Missing one of your two main hits, but getting a double attack proc to make 12 TP instead of 11 TP when you miss a main hit.

I think I got this 2-3 times when I paid attention to it. Or I should say: It were the only 2-3 cases where I couldn't write it off as being hit and/or lag. At least, I'm 99% sure I didn't get hit around the time of the WS or anything else that might have affected my TP return. Am I seeing things or did other people get 12 TP Asurans too sometimes?

I should add that I have Rajas and Brutal equipped so that changes my TP return a bit since you get like 4.9 TP return or something per hit without Store TP+ as 75 MNK.