Princess Bards

[Skjie]

1: Saying PLDs can't get more than 5k/hr is so... 2005, when they didn't have Auto-Refresh, or Shield Mastery, or a Parade Gorget, or etc. etc. etc. PLDs used to be an MP sink, sure. I'll buy into that. The keyword there is "used to be".

Except, every pickup party I've taken so far with a PLD in it, ended up being a 5k/hr party with PLD in def/vit gear (this as xping BRD to 75 in the last year).

[Jeryhn]

Time is the most precious commodity in Vana'diel. The problem is that it is of equal value to everybody.

Couldn't be more wrong. Different people have different amounts of time available to them, and as such, time is a more valuable commodity to people who have less of it.

I don't imagine anybody likes having their time wasted in any kind of crappy party. But when does this attitude stop? 10k/hr not enough? 12.5k? 15k? It may great for you to be able to cap your EXP in one three-hour EXP session, but that's simply not an option for everybody. It is incredibly self-serving to think of only yourself in these types of situations. That can't be helped.

And some people still think that 5k/hr is good EXP. And that's just skimming the surface. I still get invite requests that mention they have another RDM as some kind of plus. I've even had people ask me to join those kinds of parties because they thought Refresh stacks together like a Bard's. Some people just seem to dig themselves into holes because they either don't know any better, or are stupid as hell.

It's not so much self-serving to avoid these types of parties. IMO, it's self-preservation.

[aurik]

I don't imagine anybody likes having their time wasted in any kind of crappy party. But when does this attitude stop? 10k/hr not enough? 12.5k? 15k? It may great for you to be able to cap your EXP in one three-hour EXP session, but that's simply not an option for everybody. It is incredibly self-serving to think of only yourself in these types of situations. That can't be helped.

I get to choose when something is worth my time, not you, and certainly not the 3k/hr leechadin. It's not an option for everybody? Well isn't that just terrible.

[solsovly]

I don't imagine anybody likes having their time wasted in any kind of crappy party. But when does this attitude stop? 10k/hr not enough? 12.5k? 15k? It may great for you to be able to cap your EXP in one three-hour EXP session, but that's simply not an option for everybody. It is incredibly self-serving to think of only yourself in these types of situations. That can't be helped.

I get to choose when something is worth my time, not you, and certainly not the 3k/hr leechadin. It's not an option for everybody? Well isn't that just terrible.

If it's just friends messing around for fun, I don't care if I lose exp. If its a bunch of random strangers who completely suck at the game AND I'm not having fun? For a merit party, under 10k would probably be enough for me to consider disbanding depending on the fun I'm having. This is speaking strictly as a bard, a job which I've come to enjoy less and less.

[Sady]

The simple fact remains that even a decent ninja tank is still much much MUCH more efficient (mp wise) then a good paladin tank. Not only do they tank more effectively, but on average they also can put out better dps. Ask your self: "Why are all the hardcore endgame paladins now subbing ninja?" and you just might have the reason. In this game, blink tanking is simply superior to blood tanking. If you're still unconviced, just compare the mobs a NIN can solo to those a PLD can solo...
[/b]

There is a slight difference between leveling PLD, and end game PLD (equipment and strength of mobs). Not to mention you don't get Ni until lvl.74

That was kinda my point... comparing NIN/WAR to PLD/WAR in mid-game exp parties. The PLD is going to require alot more healing, period. The PLD will also more often then not parse lower then the NIN would. Consequently, your support mages are going to be using alot more mp because fights are longer and more damage is being taken. Therefore, party efficiency goes down. Why do endgame PLDs sub NIN? Because it's more efficient. Heavy armored ninja okgo!

I don't imagine anybody likes having their time wasted in any kind of crappy party. But when does this attitude stop? 10k/hr not enough? 12.5k? 15k? It may great for you to be able to cap your EXP in one three-hour EXP session, but that's simply not an option for everybody. It is incredibly self-serving to think of only yourself in these types of situations. That can't be helped.

I get to choose when something is worth my time, not you, and certainly not the 3k/hr leechadin. It's not an option for everybody? Well isn't that just terrible.

I totally agree with aurik. Ask any professional how much they charge hourly for their services. That number is based on expertise, experience and especially demand! You'd better fucking believe that a high profile lawyer or a senior accountant is gonna charge a hell of a lot more then an intern... If your a gimp lolDRG then you might be willing to settle for 2k/hour, but if your a pro BRD you'd probably say fuck that to anything below 10k/hour.

[Talint]

I don't go XP so -YOUR- character can level up... or player#243092343 for that matter.

XPing is inherently self-serving (unless you're just out to have fun with friends/LS), just accept that and quit whining.

Oh, I'm not whining. I'm just pointing out that everybody's time is valuable.

To a lesser extent, that it's really kind of a shame that EXP is so dependent on having 5 other people, of the right level range, with very specific jobs.

Couldn't be more wrong. Different people have different amounts of time available to them, and as such, time is a more valuable commodity to people who have less of it.

Having less time is not necessarily a sign that your time is instantly more valuable. But, for sake of argument, I'll assume it does. Wouldn't it stand to be more beneficial to take what you can get rather than try to gamble the odds? The PLD party that's ready now, as opposed to the NIN party that forms three hours from now when you have to log off?

And some people still think that 5k/hr is good EXP. And that's just skimming the surface. I still get invite requests that mention they have another RDM as some kind of plus. I've even had people ask me to join those kinds of parties because they thought Refresh stacks together like a Bard's. Some people just seem to dig themselves into holes because they either don't know any better, or are stupid as hell.

It's not so much self-serving to avoid these types of parties. IMO, it's self-preservation.

Nobody should be subject to bad parties, which this is an example of.

I get to choose when something is worth my time, not you, and certainly not the 3k/hr leechadin. It's not an option for everybody? Well isn't that just terrible.

It's five other people collectively deciding if its worth time being spent. Not you alone. Have fun standing on the sidelines while a replacement comes. Shouldn't be a problem, I imagine.

[Khamsin]

The simple fact remains that even a decent ninja tank is still much much MUCH more efficient (mp wise) then a good paladin tank. Not only do they tank more effectively, but on average they also can put out better dps. Ask your self: "Why are all the hardcore endgame paladins now subbing ninja?" and you just might have the reason. In this game, blink tanking is simply superior to blood tanking. If you're still unconviced, just compare the mobs a NIN can solo to those a PLD can solo...
[/b]

There is a slight difference between leveling PLD, and end game PLD (equipment and strength of mobs). Not to mention you don't get Ni until lvl.74

That was kinda my point... comparing NIN/WAR to PLD/WAR in mid-game exp parties. The PLD is going to require alot more healing, period. The PLD will also more often then not parse lower then the NIN would. Consequently, your support mages are going to be using alot more mp because fights are longer and more damage is being taken. Therefore, party efficiency goes down. Why do endgame PLDs sub NIN? Because it's more efficient. Heavy armored ninja okgo!

I don't imagine anybody likes having their time wasted in any kind of crappy party. But when does this attitude stop? 10k/hr not enough? 12.5k? 15k? It may great for you to be able to cap your EXP in one three-hour EXP session, but that's simply not an option for everybody. It is incredibly self-serving to think of only yourself in these types of situations. That can't be helped.

I get to choose when something is worth my time, not you, and certainly not the 3k/hr leechadin. It's not an option for everybody? Well isn't that just terrible.

I totally agree with aurik. Ask any professional how much they charge hourly for their services. That number is based on expertise, experience and especially demand! You'd better fucking believe that a high profile lawyer or a senior accountant is gonna charge a hell of a lot more then an intern... If your a gimp lolDRG then you might be willing to settle for 2k/hour, but if your a pro BRD you'd probably say fuck that to anything below 10k/hour.

I think a better analogy would be that a lawyer (senior associate or intern) will be able to charge more than a sanitary engineer (Roger Wilco or some kid's summer job mopping a fast food restaurant's bathroom).

Sadly, expertise and experience have little effect on people's invites, short of them being famous server-wide for being a retard.

[Amastacia]

At 75, I completely agree with LW.

But, for the leveling process, I have to wonder if anyone here has actually XP'd with a PLD since they stopped sucking as an XP tank (aka post all shield updates, Auto-Refresh, and the new ones with Rampart/Sentinel certainly don't hurt either).

I'm definitely not going to argue that it's hell and a half to keep ballads stuck on a PLD, especially with the sort of gutter trash, mouth-breathing idiots you see in pickup parties, that's a simple fact.

However, it's no longer the case that PLDs cause a ton more downtime than NINs (provided that they're smart). On XP-level mobs with level-appropriate parrying/shield/evasion the damage they take compared to MP regen ability for themselves and healers is laughable.

I'd imagine post-60 PLD XP would be a bit slower than NIN XP simply because NINs can wear full-out DD gear, keep Zerk up 24/7, and still have shadows, while PLD can do the same and get their faces raped or use Zerk more sparingly for the sake of damage mitigation. Then again, as long as you don't overhunt, there's no good reason a PLD can't use a lot of DD gear as well.

Top-notch NIN vs. top-notch PLD, sure the XP will be better with a NIN, but the gap is a lot narrower than it used to be. Frankly, so far XPing my PLD, there hasn't been any more downtime in pickup parties than there was on NIN, and the XP hasn't been any different either. You get some winner parties with good people where the XP just rolls. You get some stinkers with idiots where you're out-DDing WARs and whatnot.

I can understand WHY BRDs and RDMs prefer NINs, stigma doesn't go anywhere fast. Prior to the updates, yes, PLD was definitely a subpar XP tank compared to a good NIN (increasingly rare though, unless it's multi-75'ers who take NIN seriously instead of halfassing it), but now it's nearly equal in most circumstances provided a competent PLD.

Then again, much of the DRG stigma comes from the idiots that flock to the job, and much of the PLD stigma exists for the same reason. There are a lot of bad PLDs out there. Good ones, though as rare as really standout NINs, definitely do not do justice to the "lolPLD" thing for XP.

Meh, enough ranting for one day. BRDs and RDMs will still be elitists (ironic coming from me, a 75 RDM, who doesn't merit without a BRD or TP-burn DDs unless they're LS mates), no matter how much SE does effectively fix PLD as an XP tank. I still hold out vain and stupidly idealistic hope that eventually some people will get it through their heads that in anything other than a balls-to-the-wall party that's absolutely twinked to the max, you'll see far less difference than you used to between a competent PLD and NIN.

[Norelco]

PLD just need to equip extremely efficiently, then pt with a few friends to maintain them, like they're not going to need ballad 100% of the time, and for a PLD (unlike ninja) it's ok if they get hit a few times, they can heal it,when they need ballads they can run back and get ballad2 while keeping their other song.

They shouldn't even really need ballad.

Fully merited Chivalry (15 min cooldown) with all the TP they should be getting + Auto Refresh + Parade Gorget (if they felt they needed the extra MP edge for a battle or two) + Sanction Refresh should make them pretty self sufficient.

[Toth]

I will not merit on PUP without a BRD so for me, I am at the mercy of their court Thankfully, LS Bards are always game and my parties always hover and exceed 10k an hr.

[Khamsin]

Have fun standing on the sidelines while a replacement comes.

Have fun when your camp gets taken over by Aurik's new PT while he completely clears the zone and obtains 3 merits before you get 1.

[Talint]

Have fun when your camp gets taken over by Aurik's new PT while he completely clears the zone and obtains 3 merits before you get 1.

My experience has been that nobody on my server has figured out the Greater Colibri/Battle Bugard camp through Nyzul Isle.

[Jeryhn]

Having less time is not necessarily a sign that your time is instantly more valuable. But, for sake of argument, I'll assume it does. Wouldn't it stand to be more beneficial to take what you can get rather than try to gamble the odds? The PLD party that's ready now, as opposed to the NIN party that forms three hours from now when you have to log off?

You're assuming that the time everyone has is only valuable as far as EXP, an inherently flawed argument.

Time is valuable, but you can do any number of things with it before you run out. You could level a new job or subjob, do a quest, do a mission, assault, help with a coffer key, whatever. Joining a bad EXP party simply because it's the only EXP party out there doesn't make it better or enjoyable.

And some people still think that 5k/hr is good EXP. And that's just skimming the surface. I still get invite requests that mention they have another RDM as some kind of plus. I've even had people ask me to join those kinds of parties because they thought Refresh stacks together like a Bard's. Some people just seem to dig themselves into holes because they either don't know any better, or are stupid as hell.

It's not so much self-serving to avoid these types of parties. IMO, it's self-preservation.

Nobody should be subject to bad parties, which this is an example of.

The point was that people themselves are usually the ones responsible for their EXP party being bad.

It's five other people collectively deciding if its worth time being spent. Not you alone. Have fun standing on the sidelines while a replacement comes. Shouldn't be a problem, I imagine.

No, if someone wants to leave it party because it's not good, that's their perogative. You seem to have a really backwards point of view concerning this.

[Skjie]

But, for the leveling process, I have to wonder if anyone here has actually XP'd with a PLD since they stopped sucking as an XP tank (aka post all shield updates, Auto-Refresh, and the new ones with Rampart/Sentinel certainly don't hurt either).
...
However, it's no longer the case that PLDs cause a ton more downtime than NINs (provided that they're smart).

I'm in the middle of xping brd to 75 and I still put "PLD no thanks". Except for xping with friends on their PLD, almost every single PLD party I've been in has been a waste of time, Auto-refresh, shield mastery etc and all. Hoping for people to be smart is like wishing for world peace...

[Sho]

Have fun when your camp gets taken over by Aurik's new PT while he completely clears the zone and obtains 3 merits before you get 1.

My experience has been that nobody on my server has figured out the Greater Colibri/Battle Bugard camp through Nyzul Isle.

Now everyone knows >_>

[Amastacia]

Have fun standing on the sidelines while a replacement comes.

Have fun when your camp gets taken over by Aurik's new PT while he completely clears the zone and obtains 3 merits before you get 1.

Speaking from experience, even Aurik's new party doesn't clear out the entire area at the new Nyzul Isle camp. Shit just repops too fast. Then again, last time I was there was an LS party fooling around for fun, I'd be willing to bet that with a 2nd BRD we might be able to keep the whole area clear. I wanna try but Wottles will get the RDM invite ahead of me, damn his playtime and Taru MP.

[Aviendha]

I totally agree with aurik. Ask any professional how much they charge hourly for their services. That number is based on expertise, experience and especially demand! You'd better fucking believe that a high profile lawyer or a senior accountant is gonna charge a hell of a lot more then an intern... If your a gimp lolDRG then you might be willing to settle for 2k/hour, but if your a pro BRD you'd probably say fuck that to anything below 10k/hour.

I think a better analogy would be that a lawyer (senior associate or intern) will be able to charge more than a sanitary engineer

Prob one of the best euphemisms ever.

[aurik]

When the other pt showed up on the bottom ledge last time it definitely affected our pulls

Anyone who says it's my responsibility to stay in a shite party because the other 5 people are ok with it gets a hearty "fuck off" from me.

[Khamsin]

Have fun when your camp gets taken over by Aurik's new PT while he completely clears the zone and obtains 3 merits before you get 1.

My experience has been that nobody on my server has figured out the Greater Colibri/Battle Bugard camp through Nyzul Isle.

Now everyone knows >_>

It's always open on my server, too.

...

shit! http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/templ...con_delete.gifhttp://www.bluegartr.com/forum/templ...con_delete.gifhttp://www.bluegartr.com/forum/templ...con_delete.gif

[Priran]

When the other pt showed up on the bottom ledge last time it definitely affected our pulls

Anyone who says it's my responsibility to stay in a shite party because the other 5 people are ok with it gets a hearty "fuck off" from me.

omg eliteist