Basic question regarding physical damage.

[LinktheDeme]

But for the sake of winning your argument, a nin/war (mnk/war and sam/war could do the same) with defender, tav tacos and 40% damage reduction will take considerably less than a defense/vit stacked pld/war without a shield.

i've noticed this and wonder why people arent using sams to tank yet especially since seigan. Not for all mobs just like the 4 gods and pretty much most straight tanked nms

[Stellar]

Mostly because with any mob that has a normal attack pattern, the majority of damage mitigation comes from utsusemi and the damage reduction is just there for safegaurd. On something like Ix'aern (mnk) where shadows are completely futile, a sam would work just fine.

[RKenshin]

I was actually going to kind of try that on SAM! Not so much intentionally, but just as something that was kind of unavoidable.. lol

Last Fafnir fight for SAM I ended up "tanking" (in quotes since while I did get a lot of hate I was sponging it up) a good part of the fight from pure damage (no songs/buffs ) output in a ~17m fight with ~13 people and all BLMs nuking crazy as normal: http://img215.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... 641jj2.jpg 1337 ftw


I didn't voke or warcry so I could imagine it'd be a lot of hate if I did, especially considering I was getting it often over a well equiped PLD and RDM/NIN. But, I was reluctant to use Seigan over Hasso most of the fight (hence the sponging). Without any buffs or using terra's staff I take about 170-210 damage, which is kind of hard but not really that bad, especially since buffs like PIV and Phalanx II would bring that down closer to 150s.

I picked up some lolhydra gear ready to see how it would go, but unfortunately we haven't won pull in the last 1.5 weeks or so I've been able to make it... Classes started just this week so doubt I'll see any opportunities for a while.

All in all I still doubt it'd be anywhere close to as efficient as other tanks, but it would be fun!

[Damen]

hmmm do people actually tank in Arhat's Jinpachi +1 over Genbu's Kabuto? Just curious is all, I've always valued the HP(main reason) and DEF on Kabuto.

[TB]

I use Jinpachi+1 for straight tanking and Kabuto for kiting. But only when mages aren't whining about gear swaps for Utsusemi. ._.

[Ravenlokk]

Comparing the physical damage taken by a pld/war without a shield to a nin/war using defender and -phys dmg gears is kinda silly because it's not a likely scenario. More commonly you will have nin/drk or nin/brd vs. pld/nin with a shield. The nin's will likely take less damage than a non-blocked paladin hit, but the hits blocked with a shield will be considerably lower than the ninja's so it will be pretty close, depending on the pld's shield skill and a lot of other variables, such as player skill, good use of macroes, etc.. Also don't forget about Sentinel, which is huuuuuge damage reduction once per 5 minutes.

But for the sake of winning your argument, a nin/war (mnk/war and sam/war could do the same) with defender, tav tacos and 40% damage reduction will take considerably less than a defense/vit stacked pld/war without a shield.

The first paragraph/sentence straw man falacy hurt my head.. Your faulty appeal to ignorance was also a little weak. SAMs have issues holding hate using terras staff- seeing as SAM doesnt get staff skill. (Ninjutsu is far superior hate generation than missing with a staff) MNK/WAR can work tanking stuff though- i actually know a very good DRG/WHM MNK/WAR duo that use this setup and have duo'd stuff like despot/chary/etc using the -physical setup; but again, with this setup relying on DMG output to generate hate isn't viable when you have an alliance beating on the mob you're tanking..

Sorry... you didn't win the argument

[Stellar]

Wth are you talking about? First it's not my argument, read the OP's post. Also, the second paragraph was in response to the OP's question of which would take less damage in an unrealistic situation. It's purely an example of how much damage these jobs would take when getting hit. I have no idea how you related this to that jobs ability to hold hate, since I never mentioned anything of the sort..

The first paragraph of my original post states what a realistic tanking situation is. If you don't understand, maybe I can make it more clear.

Nin/drk or Nin/brd is often preferred to Nin/war.

Pld/nin is often preferred to Pld/war.

Therefore, comparing the raw blood tanking attributes of a Pld/war without a shield vs. a Nin/war is rather pointless, since it's never going to happen.

Oh, and as far as Jinpachi +1 vs. Genbu's Kabuto. The Jinpachi is far superior for taking less damage and it also has some enmity on it. I used to use the Kabuto for HP, but since Turban was introduced, I think the only time I used Kabuto was vs. Lamie 9 (i think 9) for a barwater setup against her astral flow.

[Karinastar]

Yeah, I'll admit it was an unrealistic situation, I even said in LS chat that it really isn't something that mattered, but people just wouldn't let it go so I figured I'd ask for opinions. The other option would have been to go up to sky and pop Suzaku or some other joke NM and play with it, and I doubt people would have cared THAT much to do that.

It could apply to something like NIN/BRD VS PLD/NIN, though as was stated it'd probably be a similar result since both jobs lose Defender in this case. And even then it's unrealistic because I don't know of any PLDs that tank without shield after the most recent patch...

As for SAM, I'd like to see if you can make that work Ruk. I still kinda think it would be something of a novelty and probably wouldn't match up to the more common tanking jobs like you said, but yeah it sure could be fun!

Anyway thanks for all the responses guys even though it was admittedly a silly argument. :D

[Krandor]

I use Jinpachi+1 for straight tanking and Kabuto for kiting. But only when mages aren't whining about gear swaps for Utsusemi. ._.

That makes 0 sense. Why would you use the headpiece with no enmity for kiting?

[yrpaine]

using full -% dmg on nin isn't really practical either. considering the amount of haste you'd lose, which obviously is most important on /drk or /brd.

[Karinastar]

I macro some of my haste gear in on PLD/NIN and WAR/NIN, only time it seems to be a problem is when you have healers that don't know how to deal with blinking gear/have the right macros, which I suppose can be an issue. :/

Edit: My PLD gear is completely Wal-mart though so I don't have many of the pieces that warrant being worn fulltime. ><

[Krandor]

using full -% dmg on nin isn't really practical either. considering the amount of haste you'd lose, which obviously is most important on /drk or /brd.

Macro Swaps.

The only haste you could be giving up for physical reduction (well logical gear, no Darksteel for NIN) is the head anyways, since there's no haste option for the body or weapons on NIN

[RKenshin]

Macro Swaps.

wut

[TB]

I use Jinpachi+1 for straight tanking and Kabuto for kiting. But only when mages aren't whining about gear swaps for Utsusemi. ._.

That makes 0 sense. Why would you use the headpiece with no enmity for kiting?

I think its still in my setup from the good old Kirin kiting where you like to have some extra HP+. ._.
I am usually macroing in Enmity stuff for Voke and other shit. I never really cared alot about kiting gear since I hate it to death.