Salvage Gears anyone?

[Lhexh]

The counter argument to that though is if you have a party with 3 Scythe users and each has 10% haste the mob will die 10% faster, since those swings occur 10% sooner each attack round, thus garnering faster xp/hour which of course is the most desired outcome of xping? right?

The 10% haste though will have 0 effect on parser outcome since all party members have the same relative haste and will never generate additional attacks per mob relative to the other members of the party.

[Ichthyos]

Right, this is why we all love March and Haste on melees (for melee-based parties).

I wrote the above post assuming there was one scythe user in a party deciding whether or not to equip a piece of equipment that gave some haste, keeping all the other party members / variables equal.

[Valyana]

this means, for the contrived example in which every fight lasts 60 seconds, you're not going to have any change in swings (and thus physical damage output) per mob between 3 and 14% haste being added.

Yes, but delay doesn't reset when you move from one xp mob to the next. Either you auto-target and the same delay between swings applies, or you disengage and the same delay determines when the game will let you engage again. If you have to wait or run a while between mobs this doesn't matter, but if your brd consistently has a new mob sitting on top of you by the time the previous one dies, it matters.

[divisortheory]

There's 2 kinds of haste:

1. Haste from Dual Wield
2. Haste from March, WHM spell, and gear


Your final increase in attack speed is calculated as 1. x 2. not 1. + 2. Therefore, 5% Haste actually works out to more than a 5% delay reduction when dual wielding, due to the multiplicative nature.

[Wizerd]

Salvage Gears anyone?

Haste vs Attack etc discussion

=(

[Volken]

[quote=WizerdRemora]

Salvage Gears anyone?

Haste vs Attack etc discussion

=([/quote:42b85]

Even worse, I couldn't read the derail because someone mentioned DRG and my eyes glazed over.

[hexagram23]

The counter argument to that though is if you have a party with 3 Scythe users and each has 10% haste the mob will die 10% faster, since those swings occur 10% sooner each attack round, thus garnering faster xp/hour which of course is the most desired outcome of xping? right?

The 10% haste though will have 0 effect on parser outcome since all party members have the same relative haste and will never generate additional attacks per mob relative to the other members of the party.

While what you're saying is true, the Haste spell and March don't drop my attack like piling on a bunch of Haste gear would. Swinging 10% faster is pointless if you're hitting for crap numbers, which is generally what happens unless a DRK has a shit ton of Attack gear.

As far as this conversation supposedly being derailed, not really. We are talking about how practical the Ares set is, compared to other sets of gear. Ares = Salvage gear, so I'm not sure how that's off topic.

[divisortheory]

The counter argument to that though is if you have a party with 3 Scythe users and each has 10% haste the mob will die 10% faster, since those swings occur 10% sooner each attack round, thus garnering faster xp/hour which of course is the most desired outcome of xping? right?

The 10% haste though will have 0 effect on parser outcome since all party members have the same relative haste and will never generate additional attacks per mob relative to the other members of the party.

While what you're saying is true, the Haste spell and March don't drop my attack like piling on a bunch of Haste gear would. Swinging 10% faster is pointless if you're hitting for crap numbers, which is generally what happens unless a DRK has a shit ton of Attack gear.

As far as this conversation supposedly being derailed, not really. We are talking about how practical the Ares set is, compared to other sets of gear. Ares = Salvage gear, so I'm not sure how that's off topic.

If by crap numbers you mean your average swing and WS being 10% less, then yea. However, I don't think -12 Attack is going to change your average damage by 10%. 1% at worst.

[hexagram23]

The counter argument to that though is if you have a party with 3 Scythe users and each has 10% haste the mob will die 10% faster, since those swings occur 10% sooner each attack round, thus garnering faster xp/hour which of course is the most desired outcome of xping? right?

The 10% haste though will have 0 effect on parser outcome since all party members have the same relative haste and will never generate additional attacks per mob relative to the other members of the party.

While what you're saying is true, the Haste spell and March don't drop my attack like piling on a bunch of Haste gear would. Swinging 10% faster is pointless if you're hitting for crap numbers, which is generally what happens unless a DRK has a shit ton of Attack gear.

As far as this conversation supposedly being derailed, not really. We are talking about how practical the Ares set is, compared to other sets of gear. Ares = Salvage gear, so I'm not sure how that's off topic.

If by crap numbers you mean your average swing and WS being 10% less, then yea. However, I don't think -12 Attack is going to change your average damage by 10%. 1% at worst.

Yeah but it's not as simple as slapping on 1 piece of Hast gear that gives +15 Haste, in place of 1 piece of Attack gear that gives +12 attack.

Let's say you want +15 Haste. There is the Turban, +5 Haste but you lose +5 ACC +8 Attack from Adaman Celtata (for example).

Hmmm...where else can we add Haste? Dusk Gloves....+5 Attack +3 Haste....but by using that you lose Adaman Mufflers, +4 ACC +10 Attack. So far we're only up to 8% Haste but we've lost 13 Attack, and 9 ACC.

What's next? Hmmm....Speed Belt? Gain +6 Haste but lose 10 ACC from Life Belt, or +8 ACC +3 STR from Potent Belt. So that's +14% Haste at the cost of about 19 ACC and 13 Attack.

Or, let's not use Speed Belt. Let's go with Homam Cosciales, +3 ACC, +4 Haste....but you can't use Black Cuisses, so you lose +4 STR +14 Attack. So, that's 12% Haste at the cost of 6 ACC and 27 Attack. Not too bad, but 12% isn't 15, so let's add a bit more.

Homam Gambieras are a good choice, because they add 6 ACC....so in the end you'd only lose 3 ACC over all....but using those means you can't use Amir Boots and that's another +5 Attack lost....or Black Sollerets....that's another +3 STR +8 Attack lost.

So, in the end you'd gain +15 Haste, but lose +3 ACC and 32-35 Attack, best case scenario. That's not really worth it.

[Ambir]

Let's say you want +15 Haste. There is the Turban, +5 Haste but you lose +5 ACC +8 Attack from Adaman Celtata (for example).

Hmmm...where else can we add Haste? Dusk Gloves....+5 Attack +3 Haste....but by using that you lose Adaman Mufflers, +4 ACC +10 Attack. So far we're only up to 8% Haste but we've lost 13 Attack, and 9 ACC.

What's next? Hmmm....Speed Belt? Gain +6 Haste but lose 10 ACC from Life Belt, or +8 ACC +3 STR from Potent Belt. So that's +14% Haste at the cost of about 19 ACC and 13 Attack.

I don't know... that seems like a damn good deal to me...

[hexagram23]

I don't know... that seems like a damn good deal to me...

Losing 19 ACC is huge....potentially crippling. The only place in the game you can skimp by with the least ACC possible is Caedarva Mire. I use +51 ACC and only get 85% or so parsed accuracy on Mamools, and 88% on Trolls. Using +32 ACC I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn.

Keep in mind, I'm talking specifically about a Haste build for DRK, and how it's pointless. We have no ACC Job Traits, no means to boost our ACC with JAs (Diabolic Eye doesn't really count) and we swing the slowest weapon in the game.


Fred.

[divisortheory]

I don't know... that seems like a damn good deal to me...

Losing 19 ACC is huge....potentially crippling. The only place in the game you can skimp by with the least ACC possible is Caedarva Mire. I use +51 ACC and only get 85% or so parsed accuracy on Mamools, and 88% on Trolls. Using +32 ACC I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn.

Keep in mind, I'm talking specifically about a Haste build for DRK, and how it's pointless. We have no ACC Job Traits, no means to boost our ACC with JAs (Diabolic Eye doesn't really count) and we swing the slowest weapon in the game.


Fred.

+14% haste and sushi would destroy +19 acc and meat.

[hexagram23]

+14% haste and sushi would destroy +19 acc and meat.

Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuck no. Keep in mind I'm talking specifically about DRK. I hope what you said was about WAR/NIN and not DRK, or there is some misunderstanding.

Fred.

[Dense]

Fred.

Hi Fred!

There's this really new feature on the board, called a signature! You're not going to believe it, but it allows you to not have to type your name after every post! :D :D :D :D

No offence

[Frodorn]

+14% haste and sushi would destroy +19 acc and meat.

Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuck no. Keep in mind I'm talking specifically about DRK. I hope what you said was about WAR/NIN and not DRK, or there is some misunderstanding.

Fred.

I don't think you grasp the real effect of Haste... Haste is not just a "Trend" as it was started before in this thread... Haste is easily the most potent way to increase your Damage over time... Base Weapons Speed has nothing to do with it since its a percentage... Reduce and Axe's delay by 14% and a Scythes delay by 14% and both will see the same increase in DoT... and that Increase in DoT will be greater then 14% because Haste's multiplicative nature. Your avg hit would have to drop more then your % increase in DoT for and Att/Acc build to come out of Top... and I'm sorry but the vast majority of your Att and Acc comes from sources other then your gear... Skill, Song/buffs, Food, Job Abilities... Really your gear is a small percentage of your total Stats... Divisor was 100% right...

+14% haste and sushi would destroy +19 acc and meat.

Oh and I'm also a drk, but I use a Haste build, really my build lacks a lot of attack, but can eat meat to cover that gap and still maintain my 18% Haste. Sure my Hit for Hit Numbers wont be as pretty as your Att/Acc, but my DoT will blow you completely out of the water...

[divisortheory]

+14% haste and sushi would destroy +19 acc and meat.

Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuck no. Keep in mind I'm talking specifically about DRK. I hope what you said was about WAR/NIN and not DRK, or there is some misunderstanding.

Fred.

I'm speaking about any job, including DRK. There's a reason Black Belt is a broken item. +14% haste will destroy just about anything else in the game. I hate to sound like an ass about it, but if you disagree you're pretty much just wrong.

[Volken]

+14% haste and sushi would destroy +19 acc and meat.

Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuck no. Keep in mind I'm talking specifically about DRK. I hope what you said was about WAR/NIN and not DRK, or there is some misunderstanding.

Fred.

LOL?? Go home http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/

[TsingTao]

+14% haste and sushi would destroy +19 acc and meat.

Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuck no. Keep in mind I'm talking specifically about DRK. I hope what you said was about WAR/NIN and not DRK, or there is some misunderstanding.

Fred.

I'm speaking about any job, including DRK. There's a reason Black Belt is a broken item. +14% haste will destroy just about anything else in the game. I hate to sound like an ass about it, but if you disagree you're pretty much just wrong.

It's 12% Haste. It's also an incremental upgrade from a Brown Belt. A darn good one, don't get me wrong, but it's not like Monks are going from 0% to 12% Haste in the waist slot.

Give a WAR a Riddil and look at the difference in performance. That's how you define 'broken'. Destroyers also count.

[Garret]

When you compare what Mnk's can wear in their Waste slot at any level compared to what other jobs have available it's pretty broken.

Just because Black is only an 'improved' Brown doesn't mean it doesn't kick total ass, how many melee jobs would kill just to wear a Brown Belt?

[divisortheory]

It's 12% Haste. It's also an incremental upgrade from a Brown Belt. A darn good one, don't get me wrong, but it's not like Monks are going from 0% to 12% Haste in the waist slot.

I know BB is 12%, the 14% number comes from comparing two different setups for DRK equipment, and I used BB as an example because it has the biggest single boost to haste of any other item in the game.

Anyway, 14% haste > pretty much anything. I'd take 14% haste over +50 Attack.