Warrior: Rampage and Vorpal Blade

[Dark Vincent]

Joyeuse is not even worth offhanding with Axe main if you dont own a Suppa, or so I'm told. (Kaylia enlighten me)
Playing WAR lately made me regret a bit for not having picked Suppa (specially because meriting Sword fully would benefit two of my jobs and two I plan to level, but without Suppa I might just merit axe), but I know I will never get to play WAR outside Limbus or Merits anyways so it's np

I started making other WARs cry at level 70 with subbed Joyeuse. But it helps that I started to put merits into sword when I decided to level WAR.

And past 72 too? Even without Suppa? :O If so, I guess I've decided =) What gear set btw?

[Gafgarionn]

Figured I'd ask this question since it's similar to the topic.

I just got a Joyeuse a few days ago and have since toyed around with it in exp. In mamook my damage was boosted considerably because the mobs are slightly weaker, but in Bhaflau thickets parties my acc is too low for the joyeuse to really be effective. Right now I have 8 axe/3 sword (gonna finish up that last sword, of course). I'd really like to get the right set up so I can use man/joy in merits, but it just wasn't as effective in thickets. I have a good acc set up for melee, but with my weapon skill set it's only +20 (+17 if I don't have minuet).

Should I go ahead and swap my axe and sword merits by doing Sword 8/Axe 4 or should I just stop using joyeuse offhand where I don't have enough accuracy?

[MikedeeFenrir]

Did you parse it or are you just saying "It looks like I'm doing more damage?" I wouldn't go 8Sword until I had a Ridill.

[careswww]

I outparsed myself using Rune Chopper(with refresh of course) over some axe + joyeuse until I hit like 74, when axe/joy started parsing more again.

[Gafgarionn]

No, I never parsed it but the difference was substantially noticeable. I had the obvious faster TP gain with Joyeuse, but my offhand damage was cut by around a third and my Rampages were doing what looked like around 200 less damage on average. If I could get a parser to work I would, but I'm pretty confident that my Axe/Axe was better than Axe/Joyeuse

[Septimus]

[quote=Dark Vincent]

Joyeuse is not even worth offhanding with Axe main if you dont own a Suppa, or so I'm told. (Kaylia enlighten me)
Playing WAR lately made me regret a bit for not having picked Suppa (specially because meriting Sword fully would benefit two of my jobs and two I plan to level, but without Suppa I might just merit axe), but I know I will never get to play WAR outside Limbus or Merits anyways so it's np

I started making other WARs cry at level 70 with subbed Joyeuse. But it helps that I started to put merits into sword when I decided to level WAR.

And past 72 too? Even without Suppa? :O If so, I guess I've decided =) What gear set btw?[/quote:d004f]

Fairly standard gear set, Haubergeon, snipersx2, chram, swift belt, af feet, war/drg legs, optical hat, amamet+1/foragers, assault earring, merman's earring. (Or at least something along those lines.) It certainly didn't hurt that I had 6 sword merits at the time.

[Evelyn]

definitely, if you've already got 8 sword merits in place you shouldn't have to worry about off-handing joyeuse. I'd still use axe main-hand for skilling up axe and for higher ws damage, even at low levels. but definitely off-handing joyeuse, especially with full sword merits already, won't hurt you at all. you'll see lower WS damage, and lwoer damage per hit, but with the DA procs you'll see higher overall melee damage vs. a axe/axe war.

Also with the acc issue, once you hit 75, unless you have mad acc on your war, you'll want to eat sushi everywhere except caedarva anyway. You can get away with meat in caedarva after 74 if you're decently equipped.

[Ryko]

you'll see lower WS damage, and lwoer damage per hit, but with the DA procs you'll see higher overall melee damage vs. a axe/axe war.

Tbh the overall damage difference between a merited axe war and a hybrid merited axe/joytoy war is pretty much a wash and comes down to common sense moreso, the joytoy WAR has more TP on his side I guess but you rarely fire off exactly at 100 and the double Axe WAR's rampages should be trouncing everyone else's WS average in the PT. If you already have the merits it's more than viable, but it's sort of eh if you plan on using it for any purpose higher than VT-low IT merit monkeying.

[Evelyn]

you'll see lower WS damage, and lwoer damage per hit, but with the DA procs you'll see higher overall melee damage vs. a axe/axe war.

Tbh the overall damage difference between a merited axe war and a hybrid merited axe/joytoy war is pretty much a wash and comes down to common sense moreso, the joytoy WAR has more TP on his side I guess but you rarely fire off exactly at 100 and the double Axe WAR's rampages should be trouncing everyone else's WS average in the PT. If you already have the merits it's more than viable, but it's sort of eh if you plan on using it for any purpose higher than VT-low IT merit monkeying.

I'm gonna have to disagree here. i've gone against some pretty well-equipped axe/axe wars with my modest equipment (basic end-game gear like heca hands/feet, amir boots, but not crap like kitty pants) and with parses (can't load them as I'm at work) I've noticed exactly what I've said: per hit / per ws damage is lower, but with the additional hits and TP gain I usually come out ahead. I agree with you, it usually all comes out in the wash. But with his sword merits from blu, I can't see him using Joy offhand as a liability.

[Ryko]

wait so what part did you disagree with >_>

[Evelyn]

that I honestly think a axe/joy war will outparse an axe/axe war if they have access to similar equipment/merits as appropriate. Just not by a huge amount. But I still think it is true.

[Gafgarionn]

With my limited experience of having a Joyeuse I'd tend to agree.. The other day I was in a party with another WAR doing offhand Joyeuse and he was doing higher rampages then me even with Axe/Axe. I think my problem is I need to find a comfortable balance between acc and str.

[Allundaria]

I think it would depend on the camp, for that comparison. Joy's piercing damage on flying things like *cough*greatercolibri and on lower IT/VT mobs in general would parse much better than say if you were at an IT camp with evasive mobs like Mamool THFs.

[Evelyn]

yeah, but even on mobs like mamool THFs, is the acc difference between axe and joy gonna be enough of a difference to keep you from using sushi? Plus its not like you're ONLY fighting THFs and NINs at that camp, usually you're fighting the others.

[Akanei]

that I honestly think a axe/joy war will outparse an axe/axe war if they have access to similar equipment/merits as appropriate. Just not by a huge amount. But I still think it is true.

That's not what he said, though. He said axe/axe will trounce an axe/joytoy rampage. That is fact. You could gain all the tp in the world, but that will likely even things out. In merit parties, your WS will be the determining factor of whether or not you're topping out the parser, not your normal swings and subsequently how fast you're doing them.

It may not be a liability, but you're missing heavy stats from not offhanding, for example, a juggy.

[cassiraa]

yeah, but in nearly all merit areas, you'll be pulling a decent amount of piercing weak mobs, which could swing the tide a little towards the happy multi hit Joy. Can the off-hand hit of Rampage with Joy sub double attack? I forget.

[Karinastar]

yeah, but in nearly all merit areas, you'll be pulling a decent amount of piercing weak mobs, which could swing the tide a little towards the happy multi hit Joy. Can the off-hand hit of Rampage with Joy sub double attack? I forget.

It can, but only at your base DA chance. The multi-hitting properties of the sword aren't considered on WS.

[Daimen-G]

Joyeuse deals Slash damage on WS also. Joy WS hits for 0 on crabs in SE Apollyon.

[Evelyn]

that I honestly think a axe/joy war will outparse an axe/axe war if they have access to similar equipment/merits as appropriate. Just not by a huge amount. But I still think it is true.

That's not what he said, though. He said axe/axe will trounce an axe/joytoy rampage. That is fact. You could gain all the tp in the world, but that will likely even things out. In merit parties, your WS will be the determining factor of whether or not you're topping out the parser, not your normal swings and subsequently how fast you're doing them.

It may not be a liability, but you're missing heavy stats from not offhanding, for example, a juggy.

Erm, were you referring to me? Where did I say 2axe will trounce axe/joy?

And yes you're missing heavy stats when compared to a jugg or something. But joyeuse is useful BECAUSE of the TP gain. As long as you've got decent acc (which shouldn't be a problem anywhere as long as you're using sushi, and even then in some zones you can eat meat and be fine) you're going to see faster TP returns, which means more WS. You're also going to see more regular hits, and faster attack rounds than axe/axe. With reasonable gear to both types, like I said, you'll have lower AVERAGE damage per hit/ws, but because you're doing so much more, you'll come out with more damage in the end.

Its damage resistances (on some camps), lower delay, more WS, more attacks.

If I'm wrong, please post some parse results, and the type of gear for the other war. I'll post some of my old ones as soon as I'm out of dynamis (hope I can remember which they are, sorry I don't usually keep track of gear on my parse results)

EDIT: Karina, are you sure about that? Never kept exact numbers, but I could have sworn I've seen 16% TP on rampages almost as often as 15%

[Ryko]

Multihit properties do not process on WS beyond normal multiattack traits, karina's correct on that. The point was that a fully merited axe war can easily go toe to toe with a hybrid merited joytoy WAR and that the double axe merited war gains the added benefit of having that much more attack and accuracy when theyre fighting things like HNMs should it come up though. Joytoy's not a bad option in the slightest, but like I said it's a wash, doing 15% more WSes doesn't really mean much in your favor if the dual axe war is doing 15% more damage per WS average. I'd have to look up some old parses but they'd be pretty archaic since I think the only really dedicated axe WAR I partied with got a ridill like 2 months ago and I'm rather sure I hadnt parsed us in months.