Enmity Management

[Shadida]

This is a thread about *not* taking hate, and recommendations about mitigating enmity generation.

Anyone who knows me from the Sylph server knows that when I'm on my RNG, I have a pretty bad habit of taking hate frequently during long fights. This isn't always a bad thing since I'm outfitted with my LS's pair of Strider Boots for most events, so sometimes I'll become the tank of kited mobs and run around for a little while without any very bad consequences.

However, oftentimes this is a problem since the mob is not being kited or cannot be kited effectively (at least not by a Ranger) and of course the end result is me dying. I don't usually mind it and most of the time I laugh at myself for it, but it still slows down fights to have to wait for a recovery. Normally I would reset my hate by logging out for a minute or two and returning, but even that is not much different from dying and Reraising, in terms of being unable to fight for a period of time.

I was hoping to see that the RNG v2 merits included enmity management abilities before they were added, so I was elated to find Stealth Shot and Flashy Shot. Still, the timer on Stealth Shot is 5 minutes and cannot be improved by merits, and on average I'd say I shoot 3-4 WS in that time. I've been just macro'ing all my STR gear on for WS which is great for damage, but even with Stealth Shot it's not long before that damage adds up and I'm flat on my face again.

I've recently decided alongside my full-STR WS macro I would add a STR-with-Enmity-where-I-can-afford-it macro. Here are the two gear sets for comparison:

        Full out STR            Enmity- and STR
        ======================  ======================
Main:   Vulcan's Staff          Vulcan's Staff
Ranged: Eurytos' Bow            Eurytos' Bow
Head:   Wyvern Helm             Mrc. Turban (Enmity-4)
Neck:   Breeze Gorget           Breeze Gorget
Ear1:   Bushinomimi             Bushinomimi
Ear2:   Tmph. Earring +1        Tmph. Earring +1
Body:   Kirin's Osode           Kirin's Osode
Hands:  Seiryu's Kote           Seiryu's Kote
Ring1:  Rajas Ring              Rajas Ring
Ring2:  Flame Ring              Flame Ring
Back:   Amemet Mantle +1        Amemet Mantle +1
Waist:  Jungle Sash             Spectral Belt (Enmity-4)
Legs:   Pln. Seraweels          Htr. Braccae +1 (Enmity-3)
Feet:   Savage Gaiters          Scout's Socks (Enmity-3)
        ======================  =======================
Stats:  STR+49 AGI+28 Enmity-0  STR+34 AGI+33 Enmity-14

The idea is that the first gear set would be used when Stealth Shot was available, while the other would be used in between recast timers. I should note also that I normally wear at least Scout's Braccae during normal TP so that's Enmity-2, but the other slots are replaced with other things.

I suppose the points I'd like people's opinions on are:

1. Is Enmity-14 on WS's only going to make any difference, or do normal Ranged Attacks and Barrages already contribute enough enmity that it would be a moot point?

2. Is the Enmity- worth the sacrifice in WS damage? Would it be worth it to go even further with the Enmity- (Trooper's Ring, Heavens Earrings)?

3. Would it be more effective to wear Enmity- during TP and Barrage instead, and continue using full-STR equip for WSs?

4. Have any other melees played around with Enmity- gear? RNG cannot wear the Crow/Raven set. I know that mages have tons more options, how do you usually incorporate Enmity- into your equipment?

Thanks for the serious responses.

[Ryko]

Youre better off going balls to the wall then when you suspect you're gonna pull hate do it at an angle not dangerous to the rest of the alliance then just logging for 3 minutes.

[Shuemue]

You could hit your /ra macro slightly less often? Don't Barrage the second the timer is up?

Seriously, isn't hate management something a ranger should have learned by the time they quest their AF?

[Tordall]

-Enmity also affects the rate of enmity degredation. E.g. if you leave -enmity on the hate you make from weaponskills will count less 5 minutes later.

The other issue is that there is actually a 'max hate level' which is probably why you eventually catch up (hate wise) to even the best tanks.

Personally, the log-off approach is a good way to go.

Another route is to take a bunch of damage but live through it. That dissipates hate nicely.

[Mufferino]

If your tanks sucks die like a man :/

(I would just logout after the fun)

[Shadida]

Seriously, isn't hate management something a ranger should have learned by the time they quest their AF?

Well, of course this is important for any RNG, and I've gotten a lot, lot better about it with more experience and with the advent of Stealth Shot. I only take hate nowadays when I want to (read: Flashy Shot) or when the tanks die, in which case I'm usually the next on the list.

The reason I posted this thread and I'm trying the Enmity- idea is to see if it would be possible to actually produce *more* damage output without being quite as high on the hate list. Why go balls to the wall when you can manage your enmity better and not have to worry about taking hate? Why not reduce the need to wait twice as long before firing your Sidewinder or use Arching Arrow instead to make sure you don't spike your hate too much? I'd say it's better for everyone involved if you can still land those high-damage Sidewinders with the same frequency, but have it unnoticed by the mob instead of becoming its lunch immediately afterwards.

All in all, I'm really into trying different things with RNG. I'm the one who went all-out MND gear, got an Apollo's Staff and a Korin Obi for Temenos to get maximum damage holy bolt procs. I didn't do it because it was the best idea, I just did it for a change of pace and something different. Just polling people's opinions, and hoping that some folks can bring some new ideas to the table as well.

[Luftiig]

forget about your epeen gear and wear something that wont make your dmg steal hate?
EDIT: Log out every once a while? dont know if that still works

[Shuemue]

Might this help? http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/3753

[Shadida]

forget about your epeen gear and wear something that wont make your dmg steal hate?

Well, that's kind of what I'm suggesting isn't it?

Also yeah, I've tried Flounder Meuniere before but its Ranged Attack and Ranged Accuracy bonuses pale in comparison with Sole Sushi or meat, and no one ever makes it, lol. Mushroom Stew also gives Enmity- but would only be useful with a Holy Bolt MND setup.

[Tiernin]

get better tanks

[Nystul]

Being a blm and a bst I guess I can speak somewhat knowlegably on enmity in general and specifically how it pertains to ranger since blm and rng are both often spike damage jobs.

First, consider not going all out on damage setups. For insance, when I fight something like nidhogg I wouldn't bother using a sorc ring or dropping eseal burst II's or anything like that. It's simply not required. You can do vvery solid damage over a longer period of time and ultimately MORE damage throughout a long HNM fight by doing fewer spikes and more dots. For a blm, I would guess that would mean not spamming tier IV's, but rather using some tier threes, using spells like drain etc to keep under the tank's hate line.

Also consider what adds and removes enmity. In a lot of cases if you just barely pull hate, most people will try to run, try to avoid damage etc. Even being a taru blm most mobs- most HNM's won't one shot me. I've tanked fafnir on blm for almost a minute thanks to my own blink/ss and some whms that refused to see me die. A ranger should be able to take a hit or two and survive, and often this will drop you so low on the enmity list that it's almost a full hate reset for you. Something that crits me for 500 will hurt sure, but 90% of the time the mob has gotten it out of his system and turns back to the tanks.

I have a terrible irritation for any back line people that pull hate and run away from the tanks. Often they will try to use damage or job abilities to regain hate as soon as they see the mob change focus and by running away from the mob and away from the tanks you give them range errors and TP loss and the world weeps for another dead back line character. Assuming you have gained a feel for where on the hate line you reside, and you do something that you feel will pull hate I run towards the tanks, stun the mob, and hope that the fact that the mob didn't move will allow a tank or other melee to regain it's attention off me and onto them. Not to mention it gets the mob dead faster if you don't TPown people's weapon skills.

I don't mean to insult if this seems overly basic, but it's stuff I see people do all the time. They gear up on an HNM because they want some sort of SS for their boards or something and then they are upset when they die right away, get replaced in the alliance and never get back in. Someone that drops a 2k damage WS early in the fight will have a nice chat log line but won't parse for shit compared to the person that held back a bit, stayed under the tanks and did humble but consistant damage throughout the fight.

Keep in mind that the game is designed such that almost any DD can take hate off a tank almost at will (or at least with a 2hr). Tanks were designed such that they had limited hate gain tools and melees were responsible for staying behind them on the list. Yes, tanks are supposed to do everything they can to build enmity but it is a DD's responsibility to know where that line is and stay behind it. Often this means sacrificing numbers for longevity.

However, I think sometimes pulling hate is a good thing. Eventually it does pile up and you are going to have the mob on you even if you're trying to be cautious. When that happens you might as well make the most of it. I do this all the time. In a small group killing yovra's I'll just say fuck it and suicide- but I pick my moments. A couple TP attacks in a row, tanks are hurt, timers down- a great time for me to take hate, run a few spells off, and give the tanks time to reset their timers and healers a chance to recover them.

Gear choices and -enmity merits are great but a lot of the time the biggest difference is in how you decide when to use what abilities.

[Alathar]

get better tanks

Can you read?

The other issue is that there is actually a 'max hate level' which is probably why you eventually catch up (hate wise) to even the best tanks.

[bebeci]

EDIT: Log out every once a while? dont know if that still works

I heard /shutdown is the only 100% hate erase method. /logout is the same as 'standing in one spot for 40 seconds'.

[Zalius]

You shouldn't have to sacrifice some of your dmg if you're using a somewhat (15+) full alliance. Once you get to a certain skill level, the only way to maximize your efficiency is by others in your alliance maximizing their efficiency.

[MF Perm]

If you're a RNG complaining about hate management you're a pussy. All the old school gangster rangers tanked the shit out of everything.

Chances are by running around and worrying about it you're costing more time for the team to win, and when you run you make it harder for the tanks to get hate back.

Unload and die like a man, and carry two RR pins with you constantly. If you're worth anything as a RNG you'll be able to tank something long enough for a PLD to curbomb you to get hate back or someone else to SATA the NIN. Considering all you're fighting HNM-wise as rng and doing good damage is sky gods, this thread should be moved to the noob section.

[Quixotic]

If you're a RNG complaining about hate management you're a pussy. All the old school gangster rangers tanked the shit out of everything.

Chances are by running around and worrying about it you're costing more time for the team to win, and when you run you make it harder for the tanks to get hate back.

Unload and die like a man, and carry two RR pins with you constantly. If you're worth anything as a RNG you'll be able to tank something long enough for a PLD to curbomb you to get hate back or someone else to SATA the NIN. Considering all you're fighting HNM-wise as rng and doing good damage is sky gods, this thread should be moved to the noob section.

Ya cuz the rest of the alliance likes it when you pull hate and they die because of it (such can be the case for stuff like khimaira or cerberus)

For prolonged fights, I just /shutdown at certain intervals, or I "gimp" myself by using barrage sparingly or using arching arrow instead of sidewinder. IMO the less you have to reset your own hate (through shutdown or dying) the more damage you do, so typically I go with the arching arrow method, and I shoot a little slower.

[Shuemue]

I tend to go one of two ways, if we have spare BLMs outside the ally, I'll go nuts, die, get kicked and someone else tagged in. It's more fun going nuts, and it gives others a chance at getting in. Adversely, if the ally is short on numbers, just take it easy. Don't worry about that extra few points of dmg efficiency, just take it steady and ensure the win. It's not a race usually.

[Shuemue]

EDIT: Log out every once a while? dont know if that still works

I heard /shutdown is the only 100% hate erase method. /logout is the same as 'standing in one spot for 40 seconds'.

Either a full shutdown, long enough for the server to register your character is gone, or log a mule in for a similar amount of time.

[ringthree]

Random question: Why is logging out seen as some panacea? Wouldn't having to log out prove your inability to play well, rather than proving your e-peen?

[Jeryhn]

EDIT: Log out every once a while? dont know if that still works

I heard /shutdown is the only 100% hate erase method. /logout is the same as 'standing in one spot for 40 seconds'.

It's pretty much agreed upon that logging out to POL to shutting completely down to desktop will remove hate. If you just logout your character and log back in, it'll be as if your chacter just didn't do anything for 40 seconds and is currently untargetable.

Example: Set a search comment, set your main chat mode, log character out, and immediately log in. You should still have your set comment and chat mode active instead of the defaults of a fresh login.