Enmity Management

[Xajii]

I feel like this argument is just a stupid version of RNG/NIN vs. RNG/WAR

Don't change your gear just change your fkn sub

/WAR = more STR, Berserk, etc.
/NIN = Utsusemi

One way you do more damage and if you get hate, you get hurt/die
Another way you don't do quite so much dmg, but if you get hate you have shadows

Feels less complicated than changing your gear, and you shouldn't really have hate for longer than a Ni and an Ichi at most, provided you didn't go extremely far above the tank's hate somehow. BLMs pop out more spike dmg in one spell than you do in WS on most occasions and with a good tank they still don't get hate if they aren't chain nuking.

Consider meriting -enmity?

EDIT:

Random question: Why is logging out seen as some panacea? Wouldn't having to log out prove your inability to play well, rather than proving your e-peen?

Would you rather log out and save your alliance or potentially cause a wipe? This applies to when you're solo and have aggro as well, yea I guess you could say you played wrong (in the case of non-solo then the tank coul dhave too) but it's not like you have to punish yourself by refusing to do something that would help your situation

[MF Perm]

If you're a RNG complaining about hate management you're a pussy. All the old school gangster rangers tanked the shit out of everything.

Chances are by running around and worrying about it you're costing more time for the team to win, and when you run you make it harder for the tanks to get hate back.

Unload and die like a man, and carry two RR pins with you constantly. If you're worth anything as a RNG you'll be able to tank something long enough for a PLD to curbomb you to get hate back or someone else to SATA the NIN. Considering all you're fighting HNM-wise as rng and doing good damage is sky gods, this thread should be moved to the noob section.

Ya cuz the rest of the alliance likes it when you pull hate and they die because of it (such can be the case for stuff like khimaira or cerberus)

For prolonged fights, I just /shutdown at certain intervals, or I "gimp" myself by using barrage sparingly or using arching arrow instead of sidewinder. IMO the less you have to reset your own hate (through shutdown or dying) the more damage you do, so typically I go with the arching arrow method, and I shoot a little slower.

Well there are effective ways of losing hate besides running and being able to take a dump on an HNM. But I don't know an instance besides FF/NH where a RNG taking hate would wipe others in the alliance. Examples? And don't cite stupid shit that's obviously preventable.


Anyways to be a bit more constructive - take hits, take AoE damage, if you take hate take a beating and don't ask for cures. You've lost hate and that's that. Don't recast utsu - it equals hate. JA equals hate. If you just WS'd and it turned don't pop SS/BA right away because thats a provoke.

There's a smart way to unload, and if you do take hate ( which is not a problem imho ), then tank. Stand with the tanks and tank, that's the easiest way to lose enmity. It's a no-brainer, it's old old news, and I think you're retarded if you think a RNG taking hate will wipe the alliance.


Edit: the don't recast utsu line means if you're REALLYREALLYREALLYREALLYREALLYREALLY concerned about taking hate and not keeping it, then just take a hit.

[Faranim]

Borrowed from my LS Forums (no clue who drew it but much <3 to whoever it is)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v8...006_damage.jpg

Just do full damage and reduce hate by logging out, taking damage, or dieing. It's seriously not worth gimping yourself like that.

Oh, and having good tanks helps a lot.

[aurik]

That cartoon was drawn by Vigilia from Asura.

[NynJa]

I dont think aoe damage reduces hate >.>

[Xajii]

To the people saying "just take hate and die" - what about the situations where taking hate is bad and can cause problems? If you're a RNG on Cerberus you would probably stand away from it to get good range and be away from AOEs, but if you pulled hate it could bring AOEs, conals and possibly the tail attack into mages or other players. I agree taking hate isn't that big of a deal, it happens, but it can be problematic sometimes, esp when you die and you were useful to the group

[Sylphet]

Just do full damage and reduce hate by logging out, taking damage, or dieing. It's seriously not worth gimping yourself like that.

Oh, and having good tanks helps a lot.

yup

and -14 enmity really isn't going to do anything to reduce your hate substantially.. might let you get in another hit because you have a small -enmity combined with the fact that you're doing less damage and therefore getting less hate.

But really, just log off.

A safe bet is somewhere around doing 2k damage. /shutdown or /logoff for 3 minutes to be safe. Come back. Rinse. Repeat.

[Jeryhn]

I dont think aoe damage reduces hate >.>

I'm pretty sure it does. There have been several times I've pulled hate at Bahamut and had it lose interest after I get whacked by a flail (including those targeted on others).

I've also prevented Flails, Spikes, Roars and Terrors by running out of range too, lol.

[divisortheory]

If logging out was cheating they'd fucking fix it. Motherfuckers that refuse to log out when I'm fighting an HNM and get us killed piss me off. It costs MP to raise them, they're out of comission for 5 minutes while weakened (although refusal to log out generally indicates assholish stupidity, so it's commonly followed by a double weakened increasing this to 10 minutes or more), it's totally fucking unnecessary.

In short
LOG THE FUCK OUT


For the record, you don't have to completely shut down, you just have to wait about a minute at the log on screen. I usually login to a mule and then log back into my main just to make sure.

[Quixotic]

[quote=MF Perm]

If you're a RNG complaining about hate management you're a pussy. All the old school gangster rangers tanked the shit out of everything.

Chances are by running around and worrying about it you're costing more time for the team to win, and when you run you make it harder for the tanks to get hate back.

Unload and die like a man, and carry two RR pins with you constantly. If you're worth anything as a RNG you'll be able to tank something long enough for a PLD to curbomb you to get hate back or someone else to SATA the NIN. Considering all you're fighting HNM-wise as rng and doing good damage is sky gods, this thread should be moved to the noob section.

Ya cuz the rest of the alliance likes it when you pull hate and they die because of it (such can be the case for stuff like khimaira or cerberus)

For prolonged fights, I just /shutdown at certain intervals, or I "gimp" myself by using barrage sparingly or using arching arrow instead of sidewinder. IMO the less you have to reset your own hate (through shutdown or dying) the more damage you do, so typically I go with the arching arrow method, and I shoot a little slower.

Well there are effective ways of losing hate besides running and being able to take a dump on an HNM. But I don't know an instance besides FF/NH where a RNG taking hate would wipe others in the alliance. Examples? And don't cite stupid shit that's obviously preventable.


Anyways to be a bit more constructive - take hits, take AoE damage, if you take hate take a beating and don't ask for cures. You've lost hate and that's that. Don't recast utsu - it equals hate. JA equals hate. If you just WS'd and it turned don't pop SS/BA right away because thats a provoke.

There's a smart way to unload, and if you do take hate ( which is not a problem imho ), then tank. Stand with the tanks and tank, that's the easiest way to lose enmity. It's a no-brainer, it's old old news, and I think you're retarded if you think a RNG taking hate will wipe the alliance.[/quote:e95a6]

I just cited 2 examples?

RNG for Cerberus or Khimaira is nice because you can stay out of the way of the different AOE (firespit, dreadstorm, gates of hades, fulmination). Pulling hate at the wrong time can be deadly. For example, if you're standing away from the rest of the alliance, but end up pulling hate inadvertantly and then cerb does a gates while running towards you and becomes out of range of the stunners.

Also I dunno about you, but if I ever pull hate on fafnir/nidhogg, it doesn't really effect the rest of the alliance. Faf/Nid is a joke.

[MF Perm]

I dont think aoe damage reduces hate >.>

Any damage reduces hate. Which is why an Avatar WS can pull hate right after a touchdown or an aga with a big BP.

[Shadida]

I appreciate everyone sharing their strategies, but in all honesty they are no secrets - these are things that myself and any good RNG do to manage their hate. I have been in 45 minute Kirin fights where I relogged 3-4 times. I have used Arching Arrow at the start of fights so that I wouldn't be so quick to hit the "hate line". I've waited until I had 300 TP to use Sidewinder just so I wouldn't go overboard. And there are times where I'll Sharpshot, Flashy Shot, Sidewinder, Barrage, Eagle Eye Shot and Sidewinder just for the hell of it, and take the death in return.

What I'm proposing is thinking outside the box, and getting away from the common DD mentality which seems to be "either do big damage or don't do big damage". I also would like to see if it would work well enough that /logout wouldn't even be necessary.

About /NIN vs /WAR, that's always a viable point, of course. However, in some fights /NIN is rather infeasible due to magic-based AoEs (like CoP HNMs) and in other cases /NIN still does enough damage to take hate with little effort (such as Jailer of Temperance, who's quite brittle and likes to reset hate on a regular basis).

It's my hope that people have tried or would be willing to try a different approach. I'm thinking that we can get away with a lot more damage (not necessarily bigger numbers, just overall damage) if we choose to manage our enmity through gear options. Like I said, I'm not asserting that it's the best solution or that everyone should quit using /logout, but I'm looking for something new, and frankly I think it would be challenging to find a good balance.

[Quixotic]

I think what nynja might mean is that since its aoe, and say the whole alliance gets hit, you're all at a lower absolute value of hate, but relative to each other its the same as before.

[MF Perm]

[quote=Quixotic]

If you're a RNG complaining about hate management you're a pussy. All the old school gangster rangers tanked the shit out of everything.

Chances are by running around and worrying about it you're costing more time for the team to win, and when you run you make it harder for the tanks to get hate back.

Unload and die like a man, and carry two RR pins with you constantly. If you're worth anything as a RNG you'll be able to tank something long enough for a PLD to curbomb you to get hate back or someone else to SATA the NIN. Considering all you're fighting HNM-wise as rng and doing good damage is sky gods, this thread should be moved to the noob section.

Ya cuz the rest of the alliance likes it when you pull hate and they die because of it (such can be the case for stuff like khimaira or cerberus)

For prolonged fights, I just /shutdown at certain intervals, or I "gimp" myself by using barrage sparingly or using arching arrow instead of sidewinder. IMO the less you have to reset your own hate (through shutdown or dying) the more damage you do, so typically I go with the arching arrow method, and I shoot a little slower.

Well there are effective ways of losing hate besides running and being able to take a dump on an HNM. But I don't know an instance besides FF/NH where a RNG taking hate would wipe others in the alliance. Examples? And don't cite stupid shit that's obviously preventable.


Anyways to be a bit more constructive - take hits, take AoE damage, if you take hate take a beating and don't ask for cures. You've lost hate and that's that. Don't recast utsu - it equals hate. JA equals hate. If you just WS'd and it turned don't pop SS/BA right away because thats a provoke.

There's a smart way to unload, and if you do take hate ( which is not a problem imho ), then tank. Stand with the tanks and tank, that's the easiest way to lose enmity. It's a no-brainer, it's old old news, and I think you're retarded if you think a RNG taking hate will wipe the alliance.

I just cited 2 examples?

RNG for Cerberus or Khimaira is nice because you can stay out of the way of the different AOE (firespit, dreadstorm, gates of hades, fulmination). Pulling hate at the wrong time can be deadly. For example, if you're standing away from the rest of the alliance, but end up pulling hate inadvertantly and then cerb does a gates while running towards you and becomes out of range of the stunners.

Also I dunno about you, but if I ever pull hate on fafnir/nidhogg, it doesn't really effect the rest of the alliance. Faf/Nid is a joke.[/quote:981ba]

FF/NH is flail for the rng that would stand back ( which is retarded, but pre-unnerf that happened alot right after the nerf ). And as far as the other two examples - seeing as how AoE is spread out and the chance for causing something like that, I think the slick move would be to stay inside the AoE range to A) Lose hate faster, B) spread AoE damage, and C) not have to worry about wiping the alliance by creating a situation, and being a man and taking the hit and possibly dying.

You're not going to be a very "key" person to the team even in low numbers except for damage. If the mages and tanks are alive, people can wait for you to rez and and unweak.

This is really making a simple concept alot more complicated than it really is.

[MF Perm]

I think what nynja might mean is that since its aoe, and say the whole alliance gets hit, you're all at a lower absolute value of hate, but relative to each other its the same as before.

I was thinking in the lines of what you were, as not everyone will always be in range of AoE. Some fights everyone is, some fights not everyone is. So as a blanket statement, AoE damage decreases hate.

[Jeryhn]

I think what nynja might mean is that since its aoe, and say the whole alliance gets hit, you're all at a lower absolute value of hate, but relative to each other its the same as before.

That's a viable idea on certain AoEs that deal static damage. However, generally a tank will have higher HP, better defense, magic defense, buffs and support than a damage dealer will, and will oftentimes take less damage from the AoE and be able to take hate again rather easily after the attack if its still on the guy who pulled hate.

[MF Perm]

I think what nynja might mean is that since its aoe, and say the whole alliance gets hit, you're all at a lower absolute value of hate, but relative to each other its the same as before.

That's a viable idea on certain AoEs that deal static damage. However, generally a tank will have higher HP, better defense, magic defense, buffs and support than a damage dealer will, and will oftentimes take less damage from the AoE and be able to take hate again rather easily after the attack if its still on the guy who pulled hate.

That too.

[Kaylia]

If logging out was cheating they'd fucking fix it. Motherfuckers that refuse to log out when I'm fighting an HNM and get us killed piss me off. It costs MP to raise them, they're out of comission for 5 minutes while weakened (although refusal to log out generally indicates assholish stupidity, so it's commonly followed by a double weakened increasing this to 10 minutes or more), it's totally fucking unnecessary.

In short
LOG THE FUCK OUT


For the record, you don't have to completely shut down, you just have to wait about a minute at the log on screen. I usually login to a mule and then log back into my main just to make sure.

Is it okay to overnuke with RR pin then? No mp wasted, and you can generally continue shooting/casting for the 5next minutes. Not hard to stay alive for 5min unless mobs have huge AoE attack



Anyway, I will go with what most people say. If there is a small chance that you pulling enmity will hurt your chance of win, mpk people and do stuff like that, log out and hit your macro less often. If the fight is a sure win, overnuke and tank., it doesnt matter

[Sylphet]

As much as I like thinking outside of the box I'm inclined to disagree with the idea that gimping damage and replacing it with -enmity gear is the most effective was to increase either the damage rate or total damage over the course of a long fight.

Assume that your tank's rate of enmity loss is constant.

You do less damage because you have gimped your gear. Therefore you will be able to stay longer without logging because you are NOT doing as much damage as before.

Factor in the -enmity gear. Your proposed -enmity is -14. Therefore, you can do 14% more damage without pulling hate.

So, you're damaging it slower (because you have gimped your gear) and you can damage it a *tad* more before pulling hate. But regardless you will still have to log because you do NOT have sufficient -enmity from gear to sustain you the entire fight. All you're doing is creating a longer window between log outs.

When you take into account that you only need to log for a couple minutes to assure hate reset, is it really worth it in the long run to have to carry around all that -enmity gear?

You'll likely end up doing more damage over the length of the fight by properly logging out before you pull hate and going balls out when you can.

If you really think you can do it, go ahead and give it a try but my personal opinion is that it's ultimately not going to help all that much in what I believe you are trying to accomplish.

[Quixotic]

I think what nynja might mean is that since its aoe, and say the whole alliance gets hit, you're all at a lower absolute value of hate, but relative to each other its the same as before.

That's a viable idea on certain AoEs that deal static damage. However, generally a tank will have higher HP, better defense, magic defense, buffs and support than a damage dealer will, and will oftentimes take less damage from the AoE and be able to take hate again rather easily after the attack if its still on the guy who pulled hate.

Good point.

I think the issue here is truly maximizing your output without sacrificing other resources (XP loss from death, time spent logging out that could be spent doing damage, MP used to cure you or raise you, etc). I'm all for going all out and taking one for the team, but the discussion at hand is for trying to do the most you can for as long as you can.