Enmity Management

[Jeryhn]

I think what nynja might mean is that since its aoe, and say the whole alliance gets hit, you're all at a lower absolute value of hate, but relative to each other its the same as before.

That's a viable idea on certain AoEs that deal static damage. However, generally a tank will have higher HP, better defense, magic defense, buffs and support than a damage dealer will, and will oftentimes take less damage from the AoE and be able to take hate again rather easily after the attack if its still on the guy who pulled hate.

Good point.

I think the issue here is truly maximizing your output without sacrificing other resources (XP loss from death, time spent logging out that could be spent doing damage, MP used to cure you or raise you, etc). I'm all for going all out and taking one for the team, but the discussion at hand is for trying to do the most you can for as long as you can.

And basically the answer comes down to: It's all situational. Like everything else in this game.

Example: Going all out on Cerberus is good, if you pull hate, you only need to readjust slightly. Going all out on Khimaira is bad because of its funky Draw In pattern, and having it chase someone it moved halfway across the battlefield can cause you to get Fulminated if your luck is bad.

[Khamsin]

Random question: Why is logging out seen as some panacea? Wouldn't having to log out prove your inability to play well, rather than proving your e-peen?

Depends.

You have two melee, A and B.

A does a 2000 dmg WS then logs hate, and takes 3 min before he's back in action.

B does a TA+WS for 600 damage on the tank, takes a minute to TP on a lizard, then does another TA+WS for 600 damage, and repeats for the next minute, doing a total of 1800 dmg over the course of 3 mins.

Melee A's epeen is bigger, since he will parse higher on the fight. Melee B might have been more useful in less risk of flail and helping to keep hate on the tanks, but in terms of sheer e-peen, he loses.

Now...

You have two mages, C and D.

C has full yigit, relaxing earring, etc. all the best hMP gear. He also has the best MAB gear, with enough skill to not get resisted. As such, he can put out a lot of damage in a short period of time, and rest to full fairly quickly. He is also cocky... and a taru... which means he is the highlander of BLM e-peen, ever on a quest to increase it's length by chopping off everyone elses.

Thinking its time for a new sig, he decides to nuke his entire MP pool dry in the most awesome display of fireworks and big numbers imaginable, then is promptly faceplanted as he ROFLs in LS chat, takes a screenshot, and makes sure everyone saw his e-peen grow an inch.

5 minutes later, he rests up quickly and does it again.

D, on the other hand, has nice gear, too. Only, he is a little more reserved, and keeps better tabs on hate. He sacrifices some MAB and INT for -enmity, and does a bit less per nuke than C. He nukes until the mob takes a whack at him, then he stops and rests. After a bit, he gets up and nukes again until he starts to draw hate, then rests some more.

Seeing C get curbstomped by the mob, D rolls his eyes and continues doing damage while C raises up then rests for weakness.

If, over the course of the fight, D ends up doing more damage because he was alive the entire time, then I would agree with your post. C failed in the e-peen contest, but did provide some mild amusement and a nice new sig. Now, if C still parsed higher over the course of the fight, then C's e-peen deserves to be all the more bigger.

So... in my eyes, it doesn't matter if you log hate, or die, or whatnot so long as whatever you're doing makes the mob die faster than if you weren't doing it. If the mob dies faster, power to your penis.

[Shadida]

See, for the longest time I was definitely Mage C, always eager to output damage with reckless abandon and blame the tanks when I took hate and got swatted like a bug. I'm thinking about using Mage D's philosophy as a RNG, and using Enmity- gear as a way to help out. Obviously max-STR gear has its place in meripo PTs and on most Dynamis mobs, but it seems to me like spiking damage that much on longer fights begins to interfere with your ability to be involved in the fight and fit your role.

I don't know much about Enmity- which is part of the reason I posted here. Is Enmity-14 really the same as Enmity-14%? If so, does that mean doing Sidewinders for 570 with Enmity-14 would be equivalent to doing Sidewinders for 500 with Enmity-0?

[MF Perm]

1200*

[Shadida]

Just picked a number I could easily do the mental math with, lol.

[MF Perm]

Just picked a number I could easily do the mental math with, lol.

Nah I was correcting Khamsin

Anyways, as far as I'm concerned for a RNG it doesn't matter. Your only utility is damage. For a BLM it means alot, since there are other things a BLM can be relied on, most notably stun.


So I wouldn't worry about enmity formulas or bother swapping out EQ to lower damage / hate gain. It's just about having accurate timing and common sense. Tank a little bit if you get hate, if you live, great, if not, whatev. Use your WS leading into a TA SC. Hold that TP for a couple seconds till you see the tank use a JA that increases his hate. Small stuff like that counts for alot more than logging out or using - enm gear.

And for the people that said worrying about MP for raises, if you're in an HNM ls that's serious at all, and motherfuckers aren't bringing RR gorgets or pins I'd be kicking niggas in their titty. For serious.

[ringthree]

Random question: Why is logging out seen as some panacea? Wouldn't having to log out prove your inability to play well, rather than proving your e-peen?

Depends.

You have two melee, A and B.

A does a 2000 dmg WS then logs hate, and takes 3 min before he's back in action.

B does a TA+WS for 600 damage on the tank, takes a minute to TP on a lizard, then does another TA+WS for 600 damage, and repeats for the next minute, doing a total of 1800 dmg over the course of 3 mins.

Melee A's epeen is bigger, since he will parse higher on the fight. Melee B might have been more useful in less risk of flail and helping to keep hate on the tanks, but in terms of sheer e-peen, he loses.

Now...

You have two mages, C and D.

C has full yigit, relaxing earring, etc. all the best hMP gear. He also has the best MAB gear, with enough skill to not get resisted. As such, he can put out a lot of damage in a short period of time, and rest to full fairly quickly. He is also cocky... and a taru... which means he is the highlander of BLM e-peen, ever on a quest to increase it's length by chopping off everyone elses.

Thinking its time for a new sig, he decides to nuke his entire MP pool dry in the most awesome display of fireworks and big numbers imaginable, then is promptly faceplanted as he ROFLs in LS chat, takes a screenshot, and makes sure everyone saw his e-peen grow an inch.

5 minutes later, he rests up quickly and does it again.

D, on the other hand, has nice gear, too. Only, he is a little more reserved, and keeps better tabs on hate. He sacrifices some MAB and INT for -enmity, and does a bit less per nuke than C. He nukes until the mob takes a whack at him, then he stops and rests. After a bit, he gets up and nukes again until he starts to draw hate, then rests some more.

Seeing C get curbstomped by the mob, D rolls his eyes and continues doing damage while C raises up then rests for weakness.

If, over the course of the fight, D ends up doing more damage because he was alive the entire time, then I would agree with your post. C failed in the e-peen contest, but did provide some mild amusement and a nice new sig. Now, if C still parsed higher over the course of the fight, then C's e-peen deserves to be all the more bigger.

So... in my eyes, it doesn't matter if you log hate, or die, or whatnot so long as whatever you're doing makes the mob die faster than if you weren't doing it. If the mob dies faster, power to your penis.

This seems to be a debate of a smooth fight vs. a fast fight.

So, I understand your point of view, but not all mobs are Fafnir, so C would seem much more likely to get someone killed on other mobs. I would just think that A could do more damage if they paced themselves over 3 minutes rather than logging after one big e-peen shot. The comparison between A and B is a false one, because they are different jobs.

[Raizins]

I think you're better of with picking your spots rather than going to an Emnity setup and continue your previous playstyle.

One of the bigger benefits of using rangers in an alliance is that they can do damage without being an MP sink. So for fights where your healing is limited or needs to be focused on 2 or 3 tanks, RNGs are a strong asset.

If I pull hate in a fight (usually prolonged fights, not something like sky gods), I don't really ever blame a tank or think that the tank needs to do a better job. It's most likely because tanks are constantly losing emnity because they are taking damage, while I'm shooting from X.X distance and not getting hit the entire fight. I'm pretty sure that any ranger who takes 0 damage over time and spams /ra + slugwinder, will eventually gain the attention of the mob.

I will say that I have capped -emn merits (rng + blm 75) and I do notice a difference between other rangers with +emn merits. I believe that is a difference of 8 from the merits.

[pingpong]

/nin and tank.

I really think -emnity merits for rng is a waste.

[Kattice]

It is a waste, but don't make -enmity a big deal. If you are not with a NIN tank you should be fine alone. If you have a bad tank just go easier on it. The only way you should care about -enmity is when you won't get any more acc or attack on those slots, which is never.

Might as well be fighting in a Crow/Raven set otherwise. >.> Seriously don't do it.

[Rentwokay]

People log hate for the same reason they do everything else in this game. It's the shortest distance between Point A and Point B.

Sure, Melee B and BLM D contributed a comparable amount to the fight, but Melee A and BLM C could do a massive amount of damage and then eat Doritos for three/five minutes while they relogged or waited for weakness to wear.

Not to mention hate control doesn't really show up on a parser.

[zerohero]

After months of lurking, time to start posting. As a fulltime rng/war since day 1 i got over epeen numbers and dying at around level 30 (zerk and barrage). So i consider myself a dot rng.

I'm truly a stubborn person and refused to /nin just for shadows. And yes i know /nin is more than just shadow, thats for another forum. This helped me endgame imo, merited enmity down and normally sport feet and legs af2 for the enmity.

Never saw the point of logging out, unless you have someone to take your place and have party leaders who actually know how to invite people speedily (funny how people still dont know the pcmd macros). There is no possible way spamming and logging out is more damage then constant dd that doesnt steal too much hate. Only other time was maybe a 4 man gration fight where i had two badass rdm tanks and my rng would
still take too much hate to be effective. So i would logout sometimes.

I have -enmity working for me every action i take, and i ruv seeing rng/nin stack all their str for a sarswinder that barely beats me just to die quickly (amazing how many dd that come /nin forget to recast at somepoint in fight).

Sadly all my endgame exp is after nerf, was 70 rng at the time. So that my 2cent from someone who had rng for long time as only main job. You can debate all you want, but unless you have done it, its just speculation.

So um, go for steady dd... watch hate... dont run.

[mikazuki]

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Adventurer%27s_Dirge

if you can find a bard willing to give you this you'll live a little longer, -3enm/upgrade is weak though.

or maybe you can get foe sirvente on your tanks, you're still gonna die horribly eventually sans logout, the hate system is just broken.

[fat_kat]

hi shadida,

Im guessing you are mostly talking about toa nms and maybe faf/nid for this setup(and maybe jol i guess if you guys do that), I can't comment too much on how you should be fightng faf cuz i usually dont bring my rng to that, but as for the other ones heres what i find works best.

I usually just stay out of aoe range (20.1 for cerb, 15.1 for khim and 20ish think for jol) with war sub attack food and just spam arrows. If you get minuets with a setup like this ( my gear more or less the same as yours) you don't even need to do any ws, the dmg from all those regular shots really adds up. I think fully buffed its about ~150 per shot every 5-6 seconds, if you don't ws at all you shouldn't get hate once and still outparse everyone else in the alliance by a comfortable margn.

That's ideally how i like to play it these days, but when another DD wants to do a skillchain with me, what i try to do is wear full enmity- (again about the same as yours minus that belt plus a few more af2) and stack it with lvl 1 stealth shot. I think a little bit of enmity- is worthless but a lot stacked makes a difference.


edit: oh yeah one thing i forgot to mention is that i think sidewinder has some hidden enmity+ built into it(maybe cuz of the 5.0 dmg modifier) bc even when it does ass damage it can still draw crazy hate, which is why even if you are spamming them for 4-500 a pop you will get drawn in sooner or later.

hope this helps,

fatkat

[skurlover]

Random question: Why is logging out seen as some panacea? Wouldn't having to log out prove your inability to play well, rather than proving your e-peen?

You are only mad because you are a lolDRG and don't generate the damage for /shutdown. :D

[LinktheDeme]

Random question: Why is logging out seen as some panacea? Wouldn't having to log out prove your inability to play well, rather than proving your e-peen?

Depends.

You have two melee, A and B.

A does a 2000 dmg WS then logs hate, and takes 3 min before he's back in action.

B does a TA+WS for 600 damage on the tank, takes a minute to TP on a lizard, then does another TA+WS for 600 damage, and repeats for the next minute, doing a total of 1800 dmg over the course of 3 mins.

Melee A's epeen is bigger, since he will parse higher on the fight. Melee B might have been more useful in less risk of flail and helping to keep hate on the tanks, but in terms of sheer e-peen, he loses.

Now...

You have two mages, C and D.

C has full yigit, relaxing earring, etc. all the best hMP gear. He also has the best MAB gear, with enough skill to not get resisted. As such, he can put out a lot of damage in a short period of time, and rest to full fairly quickly. He is also cocky... and a taru... which means he is the highlander of BLM e-peen, ever on a quest to increase it's length by chopping off everyone elses.

Thinking its time for a new sig, he decides to nuke his entire MP pool dry in the most awesome display of fireworks and big numbers imaginable, then is promptly faceplanted as he ROFLs in LS chat, takes a screenshot, and makes sure everyone saw his e-peen grow an inch.

5 minutes later, he rests up quickly and does it again.

D, on the other hand, has nice gear, too. Only, he is a little more reserved, and keeps better tabs on hate. He sacrifices some MAB and INT for -enmity, and does a bit less per nuke than C. He nukes until the mob takes a whack at him, then he stops and rests. After a bit, he gets up and nukes again until he starts to draw hate, then rests some more.

Seeing C get curbstomped by the mob, D rolls his eyes and continues doing damage while C raises up then rests for weakness.

If, over the course of the fight, D ends up doing more damage because he was alive the entire time, then I would agree with your post. C failed in the e-peen contest, but did provide some mild amusement and a nice new sig. Now, if C still parsed higher over the course of the fight, then C's e-peen deserves to be all the more bigger.

So... in my eyes, it doesn't matter if you log hate, or die, or whatnot so long as whatever you're doing makes the mob die faster than if you weren't doing it. If the mob dies faster, power to your penis.

You need a mage E, One like mage C but, he one that doesnt wait 5 minutes to start going apeshit again and just dies over and over again. . .
A.K.A. Thetruepandagod on sylph <3

[Tjonke]

You need a mage E, One like mage C but, he one that doesnt wait 5 minutes to start going apeshit again and just dies over and over again. . .
A.K.A. Thetruepandagod on sylph <3

Know you guys don't know me but have been lurking theese forums for {long time} and decided it was time for me to get intruduced here.
I'm Toth from Sylph server and a 75BLM/BRD (and no I don't play as that combo) and part of Tekkis LS.

Always fun to see TPG get stomped by a wyrm... He seems to be truely part of the E version of mages. Funniest incedent I can remember with him was when he MPKd a whole LS with Tiamat for BR w/o a single BR member in all of A.Chasm...

[Shadida]

<3 Panda, and lol, CP hates it when people call it "Tekki's LS" hahaha.

Thanks everyone for the added input. On CoP NMs I have actually done that, Fatkat - but usually not because I wanted to, lol.

Keep the discussion going, I think there's still a lot to learn.

[LinktheDeme]

Is there an emnity equation as to how its generated, how the parties over all emnity is in effect, and like how fast you lose it over time.

[thetruepandagod]

i did no such thing in attowah :3