Enmity Management

[Ryko]

I don't think that taking AoE damage for a pln/nin with 5-8 mp a tick refresh to cure for hate is a bad thing.

Yet I'd rather be curing my co-tank or, better yet, myself rather than you.

Remember the enmity loss through losing shadows update?

I remember it not being enough of an enmity loss per strike to be a viable argument.

Last time I checked, waiting 1 minute to do damage after pulling hate is less time than 5 minutes rez and another 10 to rest HP ( that is if you aren't being an MP sponge by asking to be topped off after unweak )

(Psst, the rng who takes the hit and hits the floor then rr's and stays the hell out of aoe range can still do damage while weakened. You dont take the accuracy or damage hit until you die again while under the first weakness state, which shouldnt be happening if your hate just got cleared due to dying.) How the hell is an unweakened ranger any more of an MP sponge than one who stays in AOE range because "oh well, the PLDs have MP"....

Ok let me try this again, with small words, just for you.

You, MF Perm, used the "you dont have a 75 RNG" argument against someone in an attempt to debunk their argument that you, quite obviously, are talking out of your own self important ego-inflated ass. Either "FFXI DDing" is a hard subject that no one whose leveled the specific job in question may speak on the subject (your argument) or it's, fucking duh, not a hard concept to the point that only 75 RNGs may talk of things that apply to basically every job in the game, enmity. (also your argument)

You cant have it both ways, no matter how much ghettofabulous rambling you throw into the end of it.

[MF Perm]

I don't think that taking AoE damage for a pln/nin with 5-8 mp a tick refresh to cure for hate is a bad thing.

Yet I'd rather be curing my co-tank or, better yet, myself rather than you.

[quote:2ce7e]Remember the enmity loss through losing shadows update?

I remember it not being enough of an enmity loss per strike to be a viable argument.

Last time I checked, waiting 1 minute to do damage after pulling hate is less time than 5 minutes rez and another 10 to rest HP ( that is if you aren't being an MP sponge by asking to be topped off after unweak )

(Psst, the rng who takes the hit and hits the floor then rr's and stays the hell out of aoe range can still do damage while weakened. You dont take the accuracy or damage hit until you die again while under the first weakness state, which shouldnt be happening if your hate just got cleared due to dying.) How the hell is an unweakened ranger any more of an MP sponge than one who stays in AOE range because "oh well, the PLDs have MP"....

Ok let me try this again, with small words, just for you.

You, MF Perm, used the "you dont have a 75 RNG" argument against someone in an attempt to debunk their argument that you, quite obviously, are talking out of your own self important ego-inflated ass. Either "FFXI DDing" is a hard subject that no one whose leveled the specific job in question may speak on the subject (your argument) or it's, fucking duh, not a hard concept to the point that only 75 RNGs may talk of things that apply to basically every job in the game, enmity. (also your argument)

You cant have it both ways, no matter how much ghettofabulous rambling you throw into the end of it.[/quote:2ce7e]

Nice, it's game point on who gets the last word in.

We can go back and forth on semantics all day, by droppping various situations which counters the other. You're starting to maybe get a clue on my point as that it's all situational and debateable, but not definite.

Apparently you still haven't caught the clue train on me saying that someone making a defining statement about a job they don't play is retarded. I never said no one without a job levelled can make observations on certain aspects of gameplay revolving around that particular job.


But since we're having fun here with all of this - let's pick apart your situations picking apart mine:

(Psst, the rng who takes the hit and hits the floor then rr's and stays the hell out of aoe range can still do damage while weakened. You dont take the accuracy or damage hit until you die again while under the first weakness state, which shouldnt be happening if your hate just got cleared due to dying.) How the hell is an unweakened ranger any more of an MP sponge than one who stays in AOE range because "oh well, the PLDs have MP"....

But you're still holding back from WS because you're weak, since a hard hit, a missed stun, or anything else that causes a tank to lose hate could occur and you just pulled hate and died again.

Yet I'd rather be curing my co-tank or, better yet, myself rather than you.

Since chances are the RNG will be taking more damage from an AoE ( considering ), a bigger cure means bigger hate. ( But you knew that, right?)

You, MF Perm, used the "you dont have a 75 RNG" argument against someone in an attempt to debunk their argument that you, quite obviously, are talking out of your own self important ego-inflated ass. Either "FFXI DDing" is a hard subject that no one whose leveled the specific job in question may speak on the subject (your argument) or it's, fucking duh, not a hard concept to the point that only 75 RNGs may talk of things that apply to basically every job in the game, enmity. (also your argument)

No, the problem is that 70% or more of the endgame players in this game are more concerned about vanity than efficiency. One bigger number than a total tally number. A piece of gear that looks like it's better than it is, or just looks good and doesn't apply very well to a situation. And obviously "FFXI DDing" is a complicated subject for a portion of people considering all the formulas people put together for ATT cap, STR, DEF, mods.

Your problem isn't with what I said, it's how I said it to the guy. And he, I would assume since he hasn't responded to my reply yet; has either not read my post, or could give two fucks about what I said and took it on the chin like a man. So conceding to any of my points for you would be conceding to the shitty attitude I gave the poor guy. Fair enough. Now that we got that out of the air, you have made some good points, and I have made some good points. It is entirely situational and debateable. Thus:


/NIN is not significantly lower than /WAR in damage.

[Beckwin]

Your argument against rng/war is that they'll take damage, but you're telling a rng/nin to sit in range of non-blinkable AoEs just because PLDs have mp? Great idea. It's more hate-efficient to cure mages btw.

A rng/war that just took a dirtnap has less to worry about when it comes to pulling hate again than a rng/nin who pulled hate and tried (horribly) to blink-tank until the main tanks got hate back. RNG can't do dmg on anything that hits fast/hard while blink tanking because you can't intterupt a ranged attack round with utsu and there's a no action cooldown after a ranged attack. So what we're left with is a rng/war that is doing more damage, dirtnaps his hate away, gets a raise and immediately starts cranking out damage again versus a rng/nin who wants to dick around in AoE range, pretend to tank, and refuses to log or die because buffer is too hard to get.

rng/war does more damage than rng/nin on HNMs. You can try to belittle the difference all you want, but when it comes to competent groups of people, they'll always prefer the optimum damage output, and for good reason.

[MF Perm]

Your argument against rng/war is that they'll take damage, but you're telling a rng/nin to sit in range of non-blinkable AoEs just because PLDs have mp? Great idea. It's more hate-efficient to cure mages btw.

A rng/war that just took a dirtnap has less to worry about when it comes to pulling hate again than a rng/nin who pulled hate and tried (horribly) to blink-tank until the main tanks got hate back. RNG can't do dmg on anything that hits fast/hard while blink tanking because you can't intterupt a ranged attack round with utsu and there's a no action cooldown after a ranged attack. So what we're left with is a rng/war that is doing more damage, dirtnaps his hate away, gets a raise and immediately starts cranking out damage again versus a rng/nin who wants to dick around in AoE range, pretend to tank, and refuses to log or die because buffer is too hard to get.

rng/war does more damage than rng/nin on HNMs. You can try to belittle the difference all you want, but when it comes to competent groups of people, they'll always prefer the optimum damage output, and for good reason.

You obviously don't know the meaning of optimum, and your "theory" is flawed.

Nothing for me to add, just reread everything and try not to be so wet behind the ears.

[zerohero]

Seems like every scenerio involves the fact the rng must die during fight. Keep your steady hits, watch when you ws. 90 percent of the time when i die is when the tanks are dead and guess what, rng/nin tanking wont last much longer than rng/war.

In the meantime rng/war is cranking out more steady damage and with good tanks will easily outdamage rng/nin. But who cares go what you want, as long as you dont waste the time of the 17 people standing next to you.

[Beckwin]

optimum damage output = more damage over the course of a fight without significant drawbacks in other areas. I've already covered that rng/war doesn't really have any of those drawbacks.

Call me wet behind the ears, but at least I can say I have a brain sitting between them.

[RKenshin]

@MF

A main point I was trying to make clear in my response is that your original posts came off as something more like "/WAR's attack buffs don't impact damage enough to put them significantly above a non /WAR", as opposed to what it clearly is now which is more like "/WARs damage output is limited more by hate restraints." As I said in my response though, I wasn't sure if I was intepreting your posts correctly.

Overall I agree and disagree on some points, and it'll probably remain that way regardless of what I say. Both SJs have advantages and disadvantages, but personally I think in the ideal situation where you're either fighting an HNM where tanks just about never lose hate (more and more common lately), or zerging a mob like DL/CoP bosses/etc, or in a dynamis run/exp PT with good DDs where all the mobs die in 10-30 seconds... IMO /WAR is the better choice by quite a good margin. Those are the typical situations I'm in so of course my opinion may be slightly biased by that in comparison to an average situation.

But yeah, in all those situations /NIN's shadows end up being useless most of the time. Which is the primary benefit in subbing NIN, and also is a part of the whole survivabilty/hate constraint point you're making. The extra accuracy really isn't a significant part of it with all things considered.

[VZX]

agree with /WAR is good when everything is under control during zerg mode

[trencher]

I guess you've never seen a ranger worth a damn

Ummm yes i have, myself and countless others. Sorry but I was 75 RNG soon after NA release, dont give me the rarwRNG speech, I've lived the dream... And it's why i suggested the OP level another job.

Sorry but RNG is generally an under achieving job (cue ammagawd rng nerf music) these days.

I really have to disagree with that to an extent... Sure on some fights RNG can be difficult to play well as a DD (Wyrms in particular) but there's always ways to make things work. This argument can go for any job, but fact is just about any job with the right equipment/skill can improvise and be useful for a situation, and this is especially true for RNG. Is it useful to have other jobs leveled? Sure, always is, but it's not necessary. RNG can work fine in most situations just like any other DD job. I'd even argue RNG is often way more flexible than other DD jobs, not to mention a well-equiped and supported RNG's nearly unmatched damage potential in a zerg.

I do agree RNG can be a versatile job (in big letters: when played "well").

I guess the point was that after all these years to rely on having only 1 DD job seems kinda silly considering you can burn a job to 75 in a few weeks usually.

at this point why would anyone limit themselves to having 1 DD job?

If we are fighting something kited, weak to RA, something that is afraid of green spandex, etc, then yes by all means I will dust off the Sbow and go to town.
And yes I generally sub nin.

edit: of course i have to go nin/drk to everything anyway, so maybe i'm just bitter...

[RKenshin]

I was bitter for a while about always being NIN lol.. I enjoyed NIN and had a lot of fun but I missed my other jobs.

I do agree that it's really much better to have multiple jobs though, but wouldn't really criticize someone with just one job if they at least know how to gear/use it very well (which I'm pretty sure is the case in this post).

I actually know quite a few people that swear by having just the one job they enjoy at 75. I never really understood it.

[Beckwin]

Well outside of RNG and a KC drk, there isn't a whole lot of practical difference between most DD jobs. THF also makes a small exception just for the ability to improve drops.

But lets say you have warrior at 75. You can tank a bit, you can skillchain with a couple weapons, you can do the SA/TA thing. Now you could go level THF and be better at the SA/TA thing or level SAM to skillchain better but in some ways its not gonna make a huge difference.

I can see how focusing on one job could be enjoyable I guess. I'd just expect those people to be able to play to all the capabilities of the job.

[Medivac]

if tanks go down shadowbind log off lol

[Isildur]

I was bitter for a while about always being NIN lol.. I enjoyed NIN and had a lot of fun but I missed my other jobs.

I do agree that it's really much better to have multiple jobs though, but wouldn't really criticize someone with just one job if they at least know how to gear/use it very well (which I'm pretty sure is the case in this post).

I actually know quite a few people that swear by having just the one job they enjoy at 75. I never really understood it.

I had 1 job at 75 for nearly 3 1/2 years up until October 2006, im quite happy with a "nearly pimped" PLD with gear for almost every situation and my NIN gear for almost every situation is pretty sub-standard. I expect to take MNK to 75 eventually, but to me i just like to tank shit, it's been my specialization forever and it isnt gonna do me much good to go on a melee job with subpar gear/merits to raids when melees are a dime a dozen but tanks arent very common.

I also hate having my inventory at higher than 50/60 and no room in my MH, so more jobs at 75 would ultimately piss me off cause i hate muling shit.

On topic, i dont thing the lower damage output of RNG/NIN constitutes having them stand in AoE range when they cant blink the AoEs, RNG/WAR could pull off the same thing and if RNG/WAR gets hate somehow (shouldnt happen TOO often if you have good tanks), the couple people tanking are gonna grab hate back pretty quick. That gives the RNG/WAR a chance to log off and clear the hate cache from those 2k Sidewinders and Flashy Shot spams.

[trencher]

i think ultimately any one who has RNG lvled to 75 and doesnt have /NIN leveled as a sub job is purely lazy.

We can argue all day about /war Vs /nin. but if you don't have all the useable subs leveled for your job you are wasting everyones times just so you can be lazy.

IF you want to be rng/war full time, well rock it out as you see fit, but if you dont even have other subs avaiable then you really don't have any arguement to make.

[VZX]

I have RNG at 75 with NIN at 37 and WAR at 19 lulz

[zerohero]

40 ninjer