Relic 3x damage formula

[Ryko]

It should be pointed out that DRK also has jack shit for natural passive tp/damage enhancing traits. Every other job in the game has a way to obtain it faster while still subbing something as (in)effective as /NIN so drk gets kicked in the balls twice as hard by doing so.

[Khamsin]

But... DRK can use rune axe, parade gorget, and berserker's torque!

...or does it take dual wield rune axes to counter berserker's torque?

EDIT: Forgot that it's 50 HP/tick, so there goes that idea.

[aurik]

Trolls are bad for competitive parsing, because of diamondhide.

The "correct" thing to do when diamondhide comes up is to use WS/abils to knock it off as fast as possible so that the party gets TP off melee strikes.

The "greedy" thing to do is to save your abilities and let someone else take the parser dmg penalty from knocking off the stoneskin.

[Sidanoir]

Trolls are bad for competitive parsing, because of diamondhide.

The "correct" thing to do when diamondhide comes up is to use WS/abils to knock it off as fast as possible so that the party gets TP off melee strikes.

The "greedy" thing to do is to save your abilities and let someone else take the parser dmg penalty from knocking off the stoneskin.

Most of the new areas have mobs that fuck with parsing...
Best way to see how people parse might be something like Demons in Ulegeureand or even weapons? lol

Colibri eat only 1 persons TP ...and of course food..

Puks gay ass Obfuckuraccuracy move messes with everyone equally I guess...but still someone is gonna get jewed on a WS sometimes..not to mention that annoying knockback thing sucks if i dont unequip dusk to move >.>

Trolls have diamondhide

So all in all there is no perfect parsing mob I guess....

[divisortheory]

Trolls are bad for competitive parsing, because of diamondhide.

The "correct" thing to do when diamondhide comes up is to use WS/abils to knock it off as fast as possible so that the party gets TP off melee strikes.

The "greedy" thing to do is to save your abilities and let someone else take the parser dmg penalty from knocking off the stoneskin.

We were both doing the "correct" thing as much as possible (I know I was anyway), partly because 80% of the time I couldn't even tell when Diamondhide was happening due to Ridill spam and using 10 line equip change macros every 20 seconds.

Greater Colibri would definitely make another interesting comparison, but the differences in Diamondhide (assuming they were in favor of Archain, which isn't evident) would be offset by the fact that I'm much closer to the attack cap without Berserk.

In the end, mob differences can be ignored IMO, because the whole point of a parse is to get past all the theory and look at results. And results depend largely on all the gay moves of the mob you're fighting anyway.

[aurik]

Trolls are bad for competitive parsing, because of diamondhide.

The "correct" thing to do when diamondhide comes up is to use WS/abils to knock it off as fast as possible so that the party gets TP off melee strikes.

The "greedy" thing to do is to save your abilities and let someone else take the parser dmg penalty from knocking off the stoneskin.

We were both doing the "correct" thing as much as possible (I know I was anyway), partly because 80% of the time I couldn't even tell when Diamondhide was happening due to Ridill spam and using 10 line equip change macros every 20 seconds.

Greater Colibri would definitely make another interesting comparison, but the differences in Diamondhide (assuming they were in favor of Archain, which isn't evident) would be offset by the fact that I'm much closer to the attack cap without Berserk.

In the end, mob differences can be ignored IMO, because the whole point of a parse is to get past all the theory and look at results. And results depend largely on all the gay moves of the mob you're fighting anyway.

Bigass assumptions you're making just so you can justify not spending a few hours capping your war sub. IMO the Diamondhide effect can't be ignored.

[divisortheory]

Bigass assumptions you're making just so you can justify not spending a few hours capping your war sub. IMO the Diamondhide effect can't be ignored.

Not really, as I've stated I wouldn't use it for exp even it were capped. All the information you need is right here, perhaps you'd feel more comfortable if Archain spoke on his own behalf about how Diamondhide affected his results? I can post the full dump and you can toil through the logs yourself searching for all the places where I got owned by Diamondhide, but in a large enough sample size it's going to be fairly even so you won't find much.

What will your claim be if I get the same results on Colibri?

The point of this is not so that I can assert "/NIN > /WAR for merits", it's to provide a counterexample to (thus disproving) the assertion "/WAR > /NIN for merits"

[Croaker]

I'll parse against Archain one of these days with him on /WAR to settle it once and for all. He beats me by about 1% when we're both on /NIN

I predict he will outparse you by at least 10%.

10% as in 40-30? Or 10% as in 33-30? I could believe the latter; I remember guaging Wafik's damage output change when he went /nin to /war in the same camps (same other DDs, same bards, same rdms...pickup pts ftl) and it was somewhere around a 2-3% jump on the parser.

I was thinking 40-30. Could be less. It is still Mandau vs. Mandau.

I was remembering how my performace got boosted from THF/NIN to THF/WAR. As a Mandau THF/NIN I was happy to keep up with WAR/NIN in a parse. As THF/WAR my last parse against WAR/NIN was 50% me, 25%,25% them.

Berserk makes a huge difference. Archain will be getting full Mandau hits instead of having to average those hits with a lesser dagger. More Mandau hits, means more of those 3x damage attacks. He will also get a lot more double attacks.

Read it and weep folks. First time I've ever beat him.

http://kalia.ultimals.com/mandau/THFNINvsTHFWAR.jpg

The fact that trolls have pretty high defense means Berserk was actually giving him a lot of bang for his buck. This leads me to believe the gap would only get wider were we parsing on Colibri, where I'm closer to reaching the Attack cap without Berserk. I usually take March/Min, but in a Double Minuet setting on colibri seems to me like THF/NIN would destroy THF/WAR, because not only would berserk be more or less wasted, THF/NIN would be hitting a lot faster.

Feel free to ask about gear setups, but we both have pretty much everything the best you can get with only a few minor differences on each side.

Thats pretty cool. I wouldnt believe it without seeing it. If I was there, I would see Archain's average hits at 70 being the highest in the group and assume he was blowing you away. As you point out though, it was the 600 more hits you got in that put you over the top.

The biggest lesson we learn from this is that we need Ridills.

[Tdizzle]

I'd say best way to judge which sub is best would be to parse youself with /war and /nin with the same party members in the same area.

Best way to parse yourself vs another thief would be to swap the thf out where all other members stay the same.

Just my two cents. Jockying for position of two thieves in the same party cant be ignored because hate bounces around too much. In the end the better thief may or not come out on top depending on how much hate he's pulling and if he has hate at times when it's time to use SA+WS. (That was my problem wiht partying with another thief and why I refused to do it after repeated occurances over several parties of that gayness taking place).

[aurik]

Bigass assumptions you're making just so you can justify not spending a few hours capping your war sub. IMO the Diamondhide effect can't be ignored.

Not really, as I've stated I wouldn't use it for exp even it were capped. All the information you need is right here, perhaps you'd feel more comfortable if Archain spoke on his own behalf about how Diamondhide affected his results? I can post the full dump and you can toil through the logs yourself searching for all the places where I got owned by Diamondhide, but in a large enough sample size it's going to be fairly even so you won't find much.

What will your claim be if I get the same results on Colibri?

I'm not claiming anything except that trolls are HORRIBLE competitive parse location, because of the direct opposition between parser-efficiency and party-efficiency goals. That's why I'm saying you should redo it in other locations.

I could make a lot more complaints about the parse -- for example, hide merits don't seem like a good idea for /war+mandau, as it relies on having TA up for MS.

In my experience in Wafik and I parsing in many different locations, /war is a good 2-3% stronger for thf. I'm talking almost a year's worth of random merit parses in pretty much every location except KRT and Lufaise.

[divisortheory]

The biggest lesson we learn from this is that we need Ridills.

If he had eaten meat he would have been around 31%ish. Not sure why he ate sushi. I was like "wow holy crap I almost outparsed Cujo" then I saw his accuracy and realized he was eating Sushi so it wasn't a fair comparison

[Sidanoir]

It should be pointed out that while Kaylia had 600 more swings landing

He was beaten in DOT by Archain
It was his WS damage (from faster TP? or higher average? or both?) that put him ahead

[divisortheory]

In my experience in Wafik and I parsing in many different locations, /war is a good 2-3% stronger for thf. I'm talking almost a year's worth of random merit parses in pretty much every location except KRT and Lufaise.

Even though Hide merits might not be the best option for a THF/WAR with mandau, HisPct-MyPct should stay relatively constant over two parses, all other things being equal.

The fact that I got higher is not even what's important here, because as someone pointed out it was fairly close. What's important is that in a previous parse at the same camp, he was 2% higher, in every parse I've ever done against him, he's about 1.5-2% higher, and in this case the only modification was a change in subjob, and the Delta was reduced.


Even if he normally gets 30% to my 25%, and this camp put us at Him 28.5% to me 26.5%, I'd still claim QED.

[aurik]

It should be pointed out that while Kaylia had 600 more swings landing

He was beaten in DOT by Archain
It was his WS damage (from faster TP? or higher average? or both?) that put him ahead

From faster TP, Archain had a 50pt higher WS average as well.
The skill delta was 15k so probably 12-15 extra WS total.

[Sidanoir]

It should be pointed out that while Kaylia had 600 more swings landing

He was beaten in DOT by Archain
It was his WS damage (from faster TP? or higher average? or both?) that put him ahead

From faster TP, Archain had a 50pt higher WS average as well.
The skill delta was 15k so probably 12-15 extra WS total.

Ahh not used to that parser didnt scroll all the way right :O

[divisortheory]

Also I'm not saying I refuse to repeat the same test on Colibri, but I'm at least satisfied enough with these results that I won't be in a huge rush to do it. Maybe sometime within a week or two.

[aurik]

In my experience in Wafik and I parsing in many different locations, /war is a good 2-3% stronger for thf. I'm talking almost a year's worth of random merit parses in pretty much every location except KRT and Lufaise.

Even though Hide merits might not be the best option for a THF/WAR with mandau, HisPct-MyPct should stay relatively constant over two parses, all other things being equal.

The fact that I got higher is not even what's important here, because as someone pointed out it was fairly close. What's important is that in a previous parse at the same camp, he was 2% higher, in every parse I've ever done against him, he's about 1.5-2% higher, and in this case the only modification was a change in subjob, and the Delta was reduced.


Even if he normally gets 30% to my 25%, and this camp put us at Him 28.5% to me 26.5%, I'd still claim QED.

Or you can chalk it up to inexperience with /war+mandau which is a lot different than /nin+mandau and /war+blau, especially since his l1 merits penalize /war more than they penalize /nin.

Or you can chalk it up to your subconscious interest in "winning" this parse so you don't have to level your war, affecting your play in both configurations.

[divisortheory]

Or you can chalk it up to your subconscious interest in "winning" this parse so you don't have to level your war, affecting your play in both configurations.

Once I do level it, I'll make sure to PM you with every parse I ever take, to make sure you realize that I'm still using /NIN.

I'm only interested in winning insofar as I can demonstrate to nonbelievers that they underestimate the strength of /NIN. For example, posts such as a few pages ago where it was estimated I would lose by 10%. Believe me, if he had beaten me by 10% or something, I would be the first to come here and post the parse regardless and my WAR sub would be 37 within a few days. Even if the gap between us had increased at all.

[Alyriel]

Kalia, as much as I hate PLing, I'd be willing to PL your WAR sometime.
Just so you can say you have both leveled and you still prefer NIN.

[divisortheory]

Kalia, as much as I hate PLing, I'd be willing to PL your WAR sometime.
Just so you can say you have both leveled and you still prefer NIN.

This sounds tempting, but I'd so rather merit