Relic 3x damage formula

[draxyl]

It's one or two evenings man...not an extreme amount of time. 5 DD's + bard PL, probably could do 30->37 in 4 hours or less. Stack your exp band the night before, and its even easier.

[Raineer]

Kalia, as much as I hate PLing, I'd be willing to PL your WAR sometime.
Just so you can say you have both leveled and you still prefer NIN.

This sounds tempting, but I'd so rather merit

Or you might fall in love with WAR like I did while levelling it as a sub lol

[aurik]

Or you can chalk it up to your subconscious interest in "winning" this parse so you don't have to level your war, affecting your play in both configurations.

Once I do level it, I'll make sure to PM you with every parse I ever take, to make sure you realize that I'm still using /NIN.

I'm only interested in winning insofar as I can demonstrate to nonbelievers that they underestimate the strength of /NIN. For example, posts such as a few pages ago where it was estimated I would lose by 10%. Believe me, if he had beaten me by 10% or something, I would be the first to come here and post the parse regardless and my WAR sub would be 37 within a few days. Even if the gap between us had increased at all.

Making this personal? Maybe "subconscious" was too generous. You definitely have a vested interest in showing /nin is "as strong as" /war, you're fighting in a camp where personal goals conflict with party goals, even a slight change in behaviour could cause such a variation.

I don't think people are underestimating the strength of /nin. ~2% less on a parser is pretty negligible for xp/hr, and can actually be a good thing if you play thf/nin to co-tank in situations where /war you're overburdening a single person with tanking. But my parses still show that same ~2% difference reliably.

[divisortheory]

Making this personal? Maybe "subconscious" was too generous. You definitely have a vested interest in showing /nin is "as strong as" /war, you're fighting in a camp where personal goals conflict with party goals, even a slight change in behaviour could cause such a variation.

If I had a vested interested in it, I would have tried to shift the results in my favor. Certainly I did my best to produce as much damage as I was capable of, and certainly anyone taking a certain position hopes that the results will support the position he/she is taking. I did, however, go out of my way to make sure that everyone was on equal footing. Parse against wafik on Trolls and I'm sure your results will be almost equivalent to what you normally experience. If you see any sort of variation that is abnormal for your years of parsing together, whether it be in his favor or yours, feel free to post it and I'll compare it against the variations I've seen while both myself and Arch were parsing on /NIN, to when we used /NIN and /WAR.

While it may be true that wafik's THF/WAR will parse higher than his THF/NIN, I've done more than enough to show that it clearly isn't as universal as you would make it out to be. I'll repeat the same test on Colibri sometime in the near future. Unfortunately, no matter where I parse, if the results come out differently than you expect you have plenty of easy outs.

Deco Weapons - Since I was /NIN my shadows absorbed the Stun AoE allowing me to produce more damage.
Mamools and Puks - I got knocked back disproportionately less often than he did, or i always had Paralyze removed from me first when fighting Skoffins.
Bugards and Colibri - I rarely had my food eaten or TP stolen, while it happened fairly often to him since he had more hate. On Bugards I would hold my WS when Scutum was used.

None of these are any less annoying and they are all equally likely as Diamondhide to skew a parse. Nonetheless, I'll do what I can to prove my case, it's up to you to look at the evidence impartially.

[aurik]

Deco Weapons - Since I was /NIN my shadows absorbed the Stun AoE allowing me to produce more damage.

Obviously a /nin camp. Even I go /nin to that camp.

Mamools and Puks - I got knocked back disproportionately less often than he did, or i always had Paralyze removed from me first when fighting Skoffins.

I don't think knockback is related to shadows because I get knocked back plenty on ninja with full shadows.

Bugards and Colibri - I rarely had my food eaten or TP stolen, while it happened fairly often to him since he had more hate. On Bugards I would hold my WS when Scutum was used.

Why did /war have more hate? Surely /war isn't voking and TA WS...right? /nin if anything should have more hate since it opens the possibility of raw DE or SAWS.

None of these are any less annoying and they are all equally likely as Diamondhide to skew a parse.

The difference is these "parse impediments" mostly:
1) don't directly conflict with the goal of making the party more efficient
2) affect primarily the main tank, and you already stated that you built the party around neither of you tanking

In order to improve the party's xp/hr you need to accept lower parse numbers. If your goal is to "win" the parser, you compromise the party's xp/hr. The line between party-centric and self-centric play at trolls is as little as delay of 1 combat round.

[divisortheory]

Knockback isn't related to shadows, but it is directional. If you're behind the mob (I think) you won't get knocked back.

Also, I shouldn't have used past tense when talking about Bugards and Colibri, because it hasn't happened yet.

In order to improve the party's xp/hr you need to accept lower parse numbers. If your goal is to "win" the parser, you compromise the party's xp/hr. The line between party-centric and self-centric play at trolls is as little as delay of 1 combat round.

At least we agree on this. Which is why I'm getting one of these synthed in the next few days. I'll probably use it over Blau Dolch for the most part unless the additional effect totally blows (which I've heard is not the case).

[suji]

At least we agree on this. Which is why I'm getting one of these synthed in the next few days. I'll probably use it over Blau Dolch for the most part unless the additional effect totally blows (which I've heard is not the case).

I haven't had the chance to test one of these either, but it looks like a really nice knife. The +1 has pretty sexy dps too (like the normal Jambiya but who cares about resist virus).

btw, another aspect of parse skew, especially for 1-hit WS, is whether or not you fire towards the end of the fight. If it has 1% HP left and you Mercy, you'll be credited with doing a lot more damage than you really did to the mob. I think this issue hurts /NIN more than /WAR for two reasons, though: 1) /NIN loses their offhand hit in this scenario, so their MS wouldn't be as hefty as normal and 2) /WAR is probably reluctant to SA+WS until he can be confident that the mob will die, thereby causing the /WAR's killing blow to exceed the mob's HP more frequently (this is when TA is not ready, of course).

[Slott]

It sucks. Don't waste your time or money on it. The DPS is the same as a normal jambiya, and by the time it procs a monster is dead. Not only that you can't even tell the add effect is on that it's such a small difference. I tested it out in several situations, and it's never worth using over blau.

Against colibri, Sometimes i'd get several procs in one fight, however more often than not it'd proc either late into a fight or not at all (as /nin offhanded)

Used it in dynamis - seemed to proc more often there for some reason. Against mamools...barely. Barely ever procs on HNM (infact I don't think it's ever procd once against HNM when I bothered using it)

But against the fights it does proc in? You can't tell the difference...like at all. The effect is extremely low.

All in all you're FAR better off with a blau dolch.

[aurik]

It sucks. Don't waste your time or money on it. The DPS is the same as a normal jambiya, and by the time it procs a monster is dead. Not only that you can't even tell the add effect is on that it's such a small difference. I tested it out in several situations, and it's never worth using over blau.

Against colibri, Sometimes i'd get several procs in one fight, however more often than not it'd proc either late into a fight or not at all (as /nin offhanded)

Used it in dynamis - seemed to proc more often there for some reason. Against mamools...barely. Barely ever procs on HNM (infact I don't think it's ever procd once against HNM when I bothered using it)

But against the fights it does proc in? You can't tell the difference...like at all. The effect is extremely low.

All in all you're FAR better off with a blau dolch.

Dynamis mobs are far lower level, proc rate is increased.
If you have one, can you measure the evasion penalty from it for us, pretty please?

[divisortheory]

It sucks. Don't waste your time or money on it. The DPS is the same as a normal jambiya, and by the time it procs a monster is dead. Not only that you can't even tell the add effect is on that it's such a small difference. I tested it out in several situations, and it's never worth using over blau.

Against colibri, Sometimes i'd get several procs in one fight, however more often than not it'd proc either late into a fight or not at all (as /nin offhanded)

Used it in dynamis - seemed to proc more often there for some reason. Against mamools...barely. Barely ever procs on HNM (infact I don't think it's ever procd once against HNM when I bothered using it)

But against the fights it does proc in? You can't tell the difference...like at all. The effect is extremely low.

All in all you're FAR better off with a blau dolch.

If nothing else I want to put an exact number on the evasion down effect using the /check test. I have all the materials, just waiting for this Bonecrafter I know to get 60 gold. He got 51 last night, so it should be quick.

[Eaglestrike]

Kalia, as much as I hate PLing, I'd be willing to PL your WAR sometime.
Just so you can say you have both leveled and you still prefer NIN.

This would still not matter if he doesn't actually start using /war and doesn't just sub war once or twice. You need to get used to the playstyle and such.

And I thought Divis had said he outparsed Archain as /nin's after he got Mandau one time? Dunno exactly.

[divisortheory]

And I thought Divis had said he outparsed Archain as /nin's after he got Mandau one time? Dunno exactly.

Now that I think about it, you may be right. It was on colibri, after the MNK switched to RNG, but it was only like a 1 hour party. I remember it because that was the time I had a bug in the parser that cleared all my data, so I lost the actual parse, but I was like 0.5% ahead (he was about 2% ahead before the MNK switched to RNG)

[Slott]

It sucks. Don't waste your time or money on it. The DPS is the same as a normal jambiya, and by the time it procs a monster is dead. Not only that you can't even tell the add effect is on that it's such a small difference. I tested it out in several situations, and it's never worth using over blau.

Against colibri, Sometimes i'd get several procs in one fight, however more often than not it'd proc either late into a fight or not at all (as /nin offhanded)

Used it in dynamis - seemed to proc more often there for some reason. Against mamools...barely. Barely ever procs on HNM (infact I don't think it's ever procd once against HNM when I bothered using it)

But against the fights it does proc in? You can't tell the difference...like at all. The effect is extremely low.

All in all you're FAR better off with a blau dolch.

Dynamis mobs are far lower level, proc rate is increased.
If you have one, can you measure the evasion penalty from it for us, pretty please?

Tell me how to measure it precisely and I'll do it. Tell me what gear to wear, what not to wear, sj all that shit. Don't make it impossible for me to test however, like expecting me to solo tank greater colibris naked with only the dagger on.

[Slott]

also how can we tell if its %based or just a number down...just include everything i need to know.

[Khamsin]

Maybe find a mob, add or subtract +/-acc gear and keep /checking and find the low or high evasion boundary, then whack it a few times and hope to proc, then /check and play with your gear until you find the boundary again, then tell us how much acc from gear you took out for it to hit the boundary again?

[aurik]

It sucks. Don't waste your time or money on it. The DPS is the same as a normal jambiya, and by the time it procs a monster is dead. Not only that you can't even tell the add effect is on that it's such a small difference. I tested it out in several situations, and it's never worth using over blau.

Against colibri, Sometimes i'd get several procs in one fight, however more often than not it'd proc either late into a fight or not at all (as /nin offhanded)

Used it in dynamis - seemed to proc more often there for some reason. Against mamools...barely. Barely ever procs on HNM (infact I don't think it's ever procd once against HNM when I bothered using it)

But against the fights it does proc in? You can't tell the difference...like at all. The effect is extremely low.

All in all you're FAR better off with a blau dolch.

Dynamis mobs are far lower level, proc rate is increased.
If you have one, can you measure the evasion penalty from it for us, pretty please?

Tell me how to measure it precisely and I'll do it. Tell me what gear to wear, what not to wear, sj all that shit. Don't make it impossible for me to test however, like expecting me to solo tank greater colibris naked with only the dagger on.

You can do it in crawler's nest if you like. Find some mob that cons even-evasion with no gear on, with any weapon type (h2h, club, sword, whatever you want). Then modify your gear so that you add 1 more accuracy (or 2 dex) and it cons low evasion.

Once you've done that, smack it with the adder jamb until the effect goes off. Now, slowly remove accuracy gear from your previous setup until it goes even-evasion again.

Report: dex, weapon skill, and accuracy gear for both the "before" and "after" setups that make it switch from low- to even-evasion.

[NynJa]

From our troll pts I see him knock off avg 1k rampages and highs of 2k without mighty strikes.

2k high without MS ??
1k average seems kinda high too...

the effect on the adder doesnt last long at all. maybe 15-20 seconds, tops.

[Slott]

It sucks. Don't waste your time or money on it. The DPS is the same as a normal jambiya, and by the time it procs a monster is dead. Not only that you can't even tell the add effect is on that it's such a small difference. I tested it out in several situations, and it's never worth using over blau.

Against colibri, Sometimes i'd get several procs in one fight, however more often than not it'd proc either late into a fight or not at all (as /nin offhanded)

Used it in dynamis - seemed to proc more often there for some reason. Against mamools...barely. Barely ever procs on HNM (infact I don't think it's ever procd once against HNM when I bothered using it)

But against the fights it does proc in? You can't tell the difference...like at all. The effect is extremely low.

All in all you're FAR better off with a blau dolch.

Dynamis mobs are far lower level, proc rate is increased.
If you have one, can you measure the evasion penalty from it for us, pretty please?

Tell me how to measure it precisely and I'll do it. Tell me what gear to wear, what not to wear, sj all that shit. Don't make it impossible for me to test however, like expecting me to solo tank greater colibris naked with only the dagger on.

You can do it in crawler's nest if you like. Find some mob that cons even-evasion with no gear on, with any weapon type (h2h, club, sword, whatever you want). Then modify your gear so that you add 1 more accuracy (or 2 dex) and it cons low evasion.

Once you've done that, smack it with the adder jamb until the effect goes off. Now, slowly remove accuracy gear from your previous setup until it goes even-evasion again.

Report: dex, weapon skill, and accuracy gear for both the "before" and "after" setups that make it switch from low- to even-evasion.

wish all my combat weapons werent capped lol...would make this easier -,-

btw adder jambiya lasts 45 sec typically for me nynja

[NynJa]

btw adder jambiya lasts 45 sec typically for me nynja

Yeah well this game hates me, so thats no suprise my adder is broken.


Anyways, I need to talk to Ravenlokk, but I'm planning to do the proper /war vs /nin test sometime today or tomorrow.

[Slott]

Mob: Colibri (bhaflau)

193 h2h, 73+10 dex || acc +24 = high evasion, acc +23 = normal evasion

(for my own reference, o hat, homam gloves, toreador ring, homam legs - brutal/ethereal earring just kept on, as was rajas ring and asn poulaines +1 / forager mantle) - in order to get to 23 evasion I swapped homam gloves and legs for fire bomblet

ok now, i took off all my acc gear (+0) = high evasion, put on swift belt only +3 = medium evasion.. I dont own anything with less than +3 accuracy.

meaning it made an accuracy difference of about... 22-24 + accuracy. (since +0 = high, +3 = normal, it had to lie within.

Anything I left out?