Relic 3x damage formula

[Mattthemaster]

Question for archain. Have you always used tatami over viking as your shield, or are you using it now because of the high str mod on MS?

[Croaker]

1. Does a Triple/Double Attack occurring on a WS hit modified by SA or TA have a chance at missing?

I'm wondering if I can miss a forced triple attack if using a 1x WS with SA or TA. I know mainhand and offhand strikes link together as 100% ACC when something like SA is used and a Kraken Club is offhanded. Since it's WS internal, I've only got the single DMG number and a TP percentage after the WS to key off of.

I'm assuming that a Triple Proc on a 1x WS will be 100% ACC due to the behavior of WS like True Strike. It seems that even with a 200 Club skill that a triple ATT on a SA+TS will always return a fairly tight number. I don't remember a time where True Strike missed one of it's TA procs.

I've used AC > MS and had only a 9% TP return before, SA causes the attack round to land, not necessarily the double/triple attack.

AC> MS when single wielding gives 7% every time.

[suji]

Unlike ranged attacks, under capped attack condition, melee damage on a crit still has a variable pdif (like 2.5-3.0, but high chance of 3.0).

Yes, and this explains the variation in Kalia's original post as well. Even if you're capped, you'll see hits that go under (dmg+fstr)*3 which is why you should perform a number of tests and look for the pattern to make sure the number you're looking at is really the cap. You can also work backwards in the damage equations to verify this based on the assumption that your attack and str are capped.

Here are VZX's graphs for comparison:

Ranged:
http://www.freewebs.com/vzx-01/img/r-pdif-v2.gif

Melee:
http://www.freewebs.com/vzx-01/img/pdif-v3.gif

(They are kinda big to inline into the thread.)

You can see that at the highest level-modified attack/mobdef for melee (2), you still have the range that aurik mentioned but for ranged it's about the same. Using VZX's min/max functions for this it seems like the min function is slightly under 3 (2.9999999999) for the capped attack scenario but I'm not sure if this rounds out to be equal in practice, I haven't tested ranged attacks much.

[Kirschy]

You guys are all talking about 2.5-3x relic procs. Scythe is 2x /cry (is this the only relic with a 2x relic proc?)

I recorded over 100 hits... the stats I still had written down:

Normal hits:
Low: 192
High: 289

Critical hits:
Low: 338
High: 366

Relic Procs:
Low: 447
High: 526

Relic + Crit:
Low: 668
High: 732

Honsetly the variances in normal hits with a 2H always kinda annoys me.

EDIT: I'm kinda dumb with the whole calculation stuff... cause I always figured damage was calculated first, and then it was multiplied by two. On harder mobs say Gurfurlur or the Gulool where I can sometimes hit for 0 damage... Is the relic proc helping prevent those 0s, or is that soley a function of the pdif thing, and a relic proc would still make it 0?

[divisortheory]

You guys are all talking about 2.5-3x relic procs. Scythe is 2x /cry (is this the only relic with a 2x relic proc?)

I'd be interested in seeing proof that it's 2x using the formula in the OP. if you go /THF and get a screenshot of a triple damage proc on a Sneak Attack against a Wild Rabbit it should suffice as proof, since it's now clear exactly where the modifier is applied in the equation.

[Kirschy]

It is, I tried back then, I'll go pull up the screen shots. It was 366 and 732.

Bleh, don't have screenshots anymore... but after 6 months with the Scythe I can attest to 732 being the cap on relic+crit, and 366 being the crit cap for sure. If the modifier was 2.5, I would be able to hit 900+ on crits I think... but I've never broken 750 (not counting souleater).

I habor resentment towards all you relic holders with your 3.0 ftp modifier WS and your 3x Relic procs. =p

[NynJa]

and follow with a trick attack and Archain should never take hate.

rotting timers...

I lol'd

[VZX]

You guys are all talking about 2.5-3x relic procs. Scythe is 2x /cry (is this the only relic with a 2x relic proc?)

I think bravura also have double damage

sucks huh? regardless they are high delay weapons

[Khamsin]

So which relic weapons are 3x and which are 2.5x? We know Mandau is 3x and Apocalypse is 2-2.5x, but what about Excalibur? Ragnarok? Guttler? Bravura?

[aurik]

So which relic weapons are 3x and which are 2.5x? We know Mandau is 3x and Apocalypse is 2-2.5x, but what about Excalibur? Ragnarok? Guttler? Bravura?

Wiki has most of them.

[Khamsin]

So which relic weapons are 3x and which are 2.5x? We know Mandau is 3x and Apocalypse is 2-2.5x, but what about Excalibur? Ragnarok? Guttler? Bravura?

Wiki has most of them.

lol @ gungnir being the only 2-handed relic weapon with 3x damage.

[Kirschy]

Wiki says my Scythe has a hidden effect of reduced HP drained from Souleater, but it isn't true .

[aurik]

Wiki says my Scythe has a hidden effect of reduced HP drained from Souleater, but it isn't true .

Has a verification tag next to it, means it was suggested but never confirmed. I'll delete that line and reference this thread.

[Kirschy]

Ahh I see....thanks~ I tested it again just to double check. Still 10% damage taken during Souleater.

[hotpiercedguy]

I also meant NIN too was tired.

And I noticed OP talks about e-peen and hitting high numbers; and considering 1500 high?

I regularly do over 1600 dmg just using Dancing edge. My record on a XP mob is 2399. If you want to hit high numbers, WAR sub wins for sure.

Berserk > Warcry > Assassin's Charge > Sneak Attack > WS = omgwtf dmg


My record BEFORE Assassins's charge came out btw (with WAR sub):


http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b1...guy/2099-2.jpg

And someone said it earier; but you cant really say "omgwtf war sub sucxorz!!!!111" Until you have it at 37 and actually try it a couple times at least.

[divisortheory]

I also meant NIN too was tired.

And I noticed OP talks about e-peen and hitting high numbers; and considering 1500 high?

Refer me to the place where I said 1500 is high. Careful, I'm luring you in.

Berserk > Warcry > Assassin's Charge > Sneak Attack > WS = omgwtf dmg

Clearly you aren't familiar with 1 hit weaponskills. I wouldn't expect you to be though, since you don't have a mandau.

[NynJa]

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b1...guy/2099-2.jpg

GOOD GAME PIERCING DAMAGE ON A PIERCING WEAK MOB
YA EPEEEEN


http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/3482/1840yl0.jpg
LOL NIN SUB

[archibaldcrane]

Part of it is a playstyle thing, as far as Archain vs. Divisortheory.

Correct me if I'm wrong (please, seriously) but if you are free-firing WS (as soon as you hit 100% TP) and you are not stacking with SA or TA unless the timer is up, Dancing Edge still > Mercy Stroke, yes? I was (am still) under the impression that MS is only uber when stacked, as you might expect from a single-hit WS. At the same time, Dancing Edge will give you a much more significant boost from Berserk than MS because of 5 hits, further enhancing /war for a "do the most damage possible" merit situation.

[Lost]

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b1...guy/2099-2.jpg

GOOD GAME PIERCING DAMAGE ON A PIERCING WEAK MOB
YA EPEEEEN


http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/3482/1840yl0.jpg
LOL NIN SUB

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y18...3/Ground-1.jpg

lolkirin? I dunno...

[divisortheory]

Part of it is a playstyle thing, as far as Archain vs. Divisortheory.

Correct me if I'm wrong (please, seriously) but if you are free-firing WS (as soon as you hit 100% TP) and you are not stacking with SA or TA unless the timer is up, Dancing Edge still > Mercy Stroke, yes? I was (am still) under the impression that MS is only uber when stacked, as you might expect from a single-hit WS. At the same time, Dancing Edge will give you a much more significant boost from Berserk than MS because of 5 hits, further enhancing /war for a "do the most damage possible" merit situation.

This is correct. However, SA+MS or TA+MS is so far beyond SA+DE or TA+DE that it requires a change in playstyle. Before MS, it's generally looked down upon to wait for timers to use a WS. After MS, you're gimping your overall DoT if you aren't waiting on timers. Occasionally I do an unstacked DE anyway because the mob is close to death and I'm the only one with TP, so it's just to keep the chain going. But if I have less than like 10-15 seconds on a timer, I'll wait for it because it will more than triple the WS damage. So far I only have 2 merits in Trick Attack (recast -4s), but after I cap it (recast -10s), I should never have to wait on a timer again because it should always be up.