Upcoming Version Update (02/09/2007)

[Khamsin]

Usu gives the master everything it will need for meripo/xp functions so thats already covered, I dont want more meripo ehancing crap through af2/catII...at all.

That's fine if you're a meripo PUP, but personally I just meripo on RDM or WAR.

I also take RDM and SMN to HNMs, and so have little use for a PUP at camps.

And given that PUP is only one of my jobs, and I have WAR RDM SMN already, which pretty much means I'll have a useful job in any situation, I'm not pushing for PUP to have a use on HNMs as an excuse to feel useful myself. But, nonetheless, it would be nice to see PUP improved to the point where I could justify showing up as a PUP and not feel like we're worse off than had I come as another job. And so I can punch stuff too. I didn't get good PUP gear to not hit something.

As for pet TP > master MP, I imagine something like TP / 13 * base perp rate would do nicely. e.g. 300 TP carby gives you 300 / 13 * 9 = 207, fenrir gives you 300 / 13 * 11 = 253, celestials and diabolos give you 300 / 13 * 13 = 300, spirits give you 300 / 13 * 18 = 415. As an added bonus, if you meritted spirit cost, it'd still multiply by 18 even though you're paying 5 less.

I don't want Asuran Fists, I don't want random traits like "Sainti Mastery" or whatever the hell, I don't want stuff that basically screams "Wow, I should have just leveled MNK".

QFT

What about something that makes a MNK scream "Wow, I should have just leveled PUP"?

As LW pointed out, the game isn't balanced and perhaps isn't meant to be. Therefore, they should have no problem making PUP outparse BB MNKs and Ridill WARs!

Well, ok, I'm not entirely serious in that last part, and I wouldn't want my PUP to outparse my WAR, though it is interesting to think... if SE doesn't intend true balance, why don't they overpower new jobs so they exceed the existing ones? Rather than have the older jobs overpower the new ones.

[Therin]

Well, ok, I'm not entirely serious in that last part, and I wouldn't want my PUP to outparse my WAR, though it is interesting to think... if SE doesn't intend true balance, why don't they overpower new jobs so they exceed the existing ones? Rather than have the older jobs overpower the new ones.

I see your point about balancing, but making the new jobs "stronger" than the previous ones would be pretty stupid, because then everyone would band-wagon them, and I'm fairly sure SE wants diversity in their jobs (though they certainly don't have that atm, but this would make it even worse).

[Tordall]

I think the real problem for pup is that it's supposed to be a melee job but is restricted to mage gear.

I bet we hear a lot less complaining about pup melee performance once a few of them have access to Usukane gear (which is basically the first real DD set they can equip).

[Tajin]

I think the real problem for pup is that it's supposed to be a melee job but is restricted to mage gear.

I bet we hear a lot less complaining about pup melee performance once a few of them have access to Usukane gear (which is basically the first real DD set they can equip).

No PUP is not a melee job, PUPs should stay back line and move the automaton <--- SE idea not mine.

[doofy]

That's fine if you're a meripo PUP, but personally I just meripo on RDM or WAR. .

I meripo on THF myself (if I still needed merits), and occasionally on PUP to test things. My THF trashes my PUP, but its not a fair comparison since my THF is pretty much finished.

But, nonetheless, it would be nice to see PUP improved to the point where I could justify showing up as a PUP and not feel like we're worse off than had I come as another job. And so I can punch stuff too. I didn't get good PUP gear to not hit something.

Thats the whole point of buffing the puppet and leaving the master alone. Its a self contained job that needs ZERO support, while providing a /support function. Its a constant DD with no bitching about buffs, erases, blindas, heals, etc. The damage aspect of the puppet is currently avg in these situations, which if improved would make it practical to use instead of a standard HNM job. The flipside to this would be trying to go all out with master damage while the puppet supports you, but unless they decide to let the puppets sing songs/etc. that's not happening.

What about something that makes a MNK scream "Wow, I should have just leveled PUP"?

This would also be accomplished by buffing the puppet further, even a full Usu PUP won't hold a candle to a moderately geared MNK unless the +haste is something ridiculous. It will be a very nice boost, but wont break any parses due to MArts/base skill/PUP being forced to eat sushi.

I personally dont gauge a job by how well it merits, PUP is already passable in a basic DD slot. It has a lot more potential in other endgame areas through the puppet, so my hope is that whatever additions are left for the job focus on that, not getting +5% in a parse.

-Vyzrael (Asura)

[Khamsin]

I think the real problem for pup is that it's supposed to be a melee job but is restricted to mage gear.

I bet we hear a lot less complaining about pup melee performance once a few of them have access to Usukane gear (which is basically the first real DD set they can equip).

No PUP is not a melee job, PUPs should stay back line and move the automaton <--- SE idea not mine.

You mean fight alongside the automaton? It's PUP, not SMN. SMN stays on the back line and lets their pet do the work. PUP works with the automaton, splitting the damage between the two of them. Even with just C skill, its a waste of damage potential not to add your damage to the automaton's. Afterall, I parse higher than my automaton, though for something with really high DEF or evasion, my automaton would probably be on par with me, or better (depending on just how high DEF the HNM is). Nonetheless, moving the PUP to the back line cuts their effectiveness by a lot. It's not like a melee RDM or SMN, where it intereferes with their ability to do their job. PUPs don't need to rest, and if they're not meleeing with their automaton, they're just deadweight.

[Toth]

Usukane and all salvage gear are a dead issue as far as I am concerned. Sure I want them but the nature of salvage, the scarcity of certain materials needed for the armor, and the randomness factor make getting even one of those pieces a monumental task I rather not be concerned about.

BTw Sainti Mastery was my idea (at lvl 1, 5% base accuracy and attack bonus when using saintis, 2% more of both each merit)and I stand by it as a very useful cat2 merit ability. The choice to put merits into it, however, would be dictated by whatever cat2 merits there are and how well they improve the automaton.

[Spira]

There is still a possibility of job adjustments.. The initial Oct update summary didn't mention anything about job adjustments but they still made changes to SAM, SAM, DRG and ranged attack. I'd think all these changes are gradual, except that the key point is still that some jobs need these changes more than others. PUP is in dire need of tweaks, if only because its new plus doesn't have a lot of eq to work with. The fact that it's a pet based job compounds this problem.

Jobs like SMN can still use some tweaks, but I think SE does take these into great consideration and try not to throw in quick fixes (altho they do throw in quick nerfs) Another thing about the new jobs is that they're failing to gain popularity with the audience, other than BLU. I'd reckon COR and PUP are now the least played jobs in the game, and that makes them sadder than the older jobs that currently 'suck' because all those jobs did actually shine once upon a time. Lets see if i can make a quick list of jobs shining

WAR - currently the kings of tp-burn
MNK - asuranfist spam days, and they're still great.
WHM - never really went out of style.
BLM - #1 magic dmg dealer
RDM - refresh whores + can solo all sorts of crap.
THF - um.. fuidama days? they're getting better again
PLD - wow. sentinel, auto-refresh, etc. could use a final push tho.
DRK - kraken drk. normal play needs slight boost
BST - from the no exp loss + charming heavy monsters days. needs help now.
BRD - doesn't need help.
RNG - rng used to be top DD. they're recovering lost ground now.
SAM - seigan/hasso have been pretty nice...
NIN - seriously doesn't need improvement.
DRG - pentaspam days.. has been improved on alot but needs a push too.
SMN - never was that great. split bps is a good, steadily getting better
BLU - started off better than most jobs already are.
COR - just isn't popular.
PUP - very lacking - slowly being tweaked up.. but still very lacking.

all from my perspective only. i think BRD, RDM and NIN are the only 'perfectly balanced jobs' if you put them as the baseline and everything else below it.

edit: my idea of good PUP group 2 attachments would have all of them involve the automaton. its the true focus of the job. sainti mastery would be as bad as the kind of merits that BST got for group 2

[Tajin]

Afterall, I parse higher than my automaton, though for something with really high DEF or evasion, my automaton would probably be on par with me, or better (depending on just how high DEF the HNM is).

i'll just stfu >.>

[Priran]

On the topic of MP Chakra, I was like "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" when I found out you couldn't Devotion yourself.

[Sady]

People talk about the game being "balanced" like it was a PvP game, in which case yes the jobs would have to be at least somewhat balanced. Rain check people, this is a PvE game! Jobs don't have to be balanced at all with respect to eachother, rather PCs have to be balanced with respect to NPCs.

Let's take the typical "balanced" alliance setup for example

Tank PT: 2 tanks, 4 support
Melee PT: 4 melee, 2 support
BLM PT: 4 BLM, 2 support

It's very clear that to me game developers intended job distribution to be uneven. Like much of the gear they put in, certain jobs were no doubt intended to be situational which is why as LW stated that certain jobs excel in certain encounters (some more then others ). Recall that you can change jobs to adapt to different situations as well.

[Tordall]

The way it works out for beastmaster and dragoon (the other two melee+pet jobs) is that the pet does less and less of the overall damage as the main gets better gear & merits.

For example, a high-end dragoon will do almost 8x the damage of their wyvern. An AF-only dragoon only does like 3x the damage of the wyvern.

With the addition of JSE2 merits, beastmasters became a bit of an exception to this since they got a nice way to improve the damage of their 'free' pets. It used to be that a 'AF only' bst would do less than x2 their jug pet's damage and a fully geared Bst could only get up to about x5. With bst affinity at level 3 a cheap jug pet gets noticably stronger and the ratio of player damage vs. pet damage goes down.

In both dragoon & beastmaster, they only become high-end DDs when the player is seriously well geared, not through any buffs that can be applied to the pets.

My point about pups being restricted by the gear that they have is framed from that point of view. It's really the 3rd melee + pet job, with a stronger pet than both dragoon & beastmaster (ussually, LDL will give nearly anything a run for it's money).

[aurik]

Every update looks like shit until they make the "big" announcement--which is usually the last or second-last. Most people thought december was gonna be lame until they announced salvage like 3 days before maint.

That said, they're late on this patch. Cycle is 2 months, but this one has taken 3.

[Kiro]

Let's hope that extra time was put to good use.

[aurik]

Let's hope that extra time was put to good use.

Probably not, at least in the US, a lot of game companies pretty much shut down the last half of december.

[Siatdiat]

People talk about the game being "balanced" like it was a PvP game, in which case yes the jobs would have to be at least somewhat balanced. Rain check people, this is a PvE game! Jobs don't have to be balanced at all with respect to eachother, rather PCs have to be balanced with respect to NPCs.

Let's take the typical "balanced" alliance setup for example

Tank PT: 2 tanks, 4 support
Melee PT: 4 melee, 2 support
BLM PT: 4 BLM, 2 support

It's very clear that to me game developers intended job distribution to be uneven. Like much of the gear they put in, certain jobs were no doubt intended to be situational which is why as LW stated that certain jobs excel in certain encounters (some more then others ). Recall that you can change jobs to adapt to different situations as well.

Is that rdm 75 in your sig your only 75 job? hmm, good in merit. good on hnms. good solo. stfu.

[Lordender]

I just don't understand why its so hard for SE to make a few Fafnir like HNM that has drops for multiple jobs thats all useful gear and not fucking JSE thats lol.

[Khamsin]

Afterall, I parse higher than my automaton, though for something with really high DEF or evasion, my automaton would probably be on par with me, or better (depending on just how high DEF the HNM is).

i'll just stfu >.>

Are there PUPs out there whose automatons outparse them? lol

Usukane and all salvage gear are a dead issue as far as I am concerned. Sure I want them but the nature of salvage, the scarcity of certain materials needed for the armor, and the randomness factor make getting even one of those pieces a monumental task I rather not be concerned about.

It's not really as bad as you make it seem. In my group, we've seen level 15 and 25 pieces drop for usukane legs, if they had both gone to the same person all they'd need is the 35 piece which isn't that difficult to target and get.

Every update looks like shit until they make the "big" announcement--which is usually the last or second-last. Most people thought december was gonna be lame until they announced salvage like 3 days before maint.

That said, they're late on this patch. Cycle is 2 months, but this one has taken 3.

They mentioned Salvage way early on, one of the first things actually. But for some reason, people forgot about it and all throughout the next month, people were acting as if they never mentioned it.

[Judai]

People talk about the game being "balanced" like it was a PvP game, in which case yes the jobs would have to be at least somewhat balanced. Rain check people, this is a PvE game! Jobs don't have to be balanced at all with respect to eachother, rather PCs have to be balanced with respect to NPCs.

Let's take the typical "balanced" alliance setup for example

Tank PT: 2 tanks, 4 support
Melee PT: 4 melee, 2 support
BLM PT: 4 BLM, 2 support

It's very clear that to me game developers intended job distribution to be uneven. Like much of the gear they put in, certain jobs were no doubt intended to be situational which is why as LW stated that certain jobs excel in certain encounters (some more then others ). Recall that you can change jobs to adapt to different situations as well.

Is that rdm 75 in your sig your only 75 job? hmm, good in merit. good on hnms. good solo. stfu.

so because he has a job good for everything his point is invalid? If every job was perfectly "balanced" they would all be the same fucking job. I think the guy's point is correct. If you want a perfectly balanced job, level one of them. If you want to try something oddball then level that but don't be emo and cry about your unbalanced job.

Everyone just whines and whines and bitches. Just quit if you hate the game. Don't you have anything better to do? If not then stfu. Yes, we would like changes and constructive critism is good but don't just whine for the sake of whining.

PUP could use some beefing. SMN to me, seems great at what it does. SMN can solo very well, Imps in Caedavra for example. SMN can work in merit parties great, if the SMN doesn't suck. SMN works as a great DD on a plethera of HNMs and what not. SMN also acts as a great support on plenty of things, Earthen Ward, etc. Yet, people cry about SMN sucking.

You can pretty much fit any jobs into the roles they are intended to help in and do great. The balance is found in that you need Tanks, DD, Support and Healers for most everything. Whether that means 1 job that can kind of cover those things for something small or a bunch of jobs to work together for something big.

If you don't have actual constructive critism to add, then stfu. I'm not surprised tho, it happens every update and it's always the same people crying.

/endsrantaboutwhinypplfornow

ninjaeditedoutstuff

[BRP]

so because he has a job good for everything his point is invalid? If every job was perfectly "balanced" they would all be the same fucking job.

Not at all. In fact because there is so little balance, everyone is the "same fucking job". In a balanced game, if such a thing even really exists, two jobs that have the same tasks will be roughly the same in areas that neither share expertise and will excel when put into a situation where their job was made to excel in.

For example: Lets say DRG and WAR were equal in strength. DRG uses jumps, wyvern, and any other abilities to keep up with the WAR's Berserk, ect, ect. Let's say against a Dragon type monster, the DRG is much more superior. However, against a monster that is weak to Axes, the WAR would be superior. As long as the number of situations one job excelled isn't too much greater than the other, and there are situations where they would be roughly equal(differences would be made from player skill and character gear/merits), the game is balanced.

Its hard to imagine a "perfect" game, but the problem with FFXI is that there is some effort, but not enough effort or direction. If you reach to touch the stars, you won't ever touch them, but you will still progress and thats pretty much what people want... er... okay, maybe most people want their WARs and Kraken DRKs, but a decent sized minority wants it.