Oh what a wonderful world!

[Kyreth]

Actually, it seems pretty likely that the Avatars are former mortals that were made into Godly beings.
The name 'Avatar' makes more sense that way, since they would be the physical manifestation of the power rather than the power itself.

According to the legends regarding many of the Avatars, this is exactly what they are- even some of the nonhuman ones. Ramuh is an example- a wise sage who ascended into the heavens.

[Khamsin]

But doesn't the opening say "brought forth mighty gods". I was always under the impression that those gods were Altana, Promathia, and the 8 celestials. You can use your imagination to say that the Shijen were also created then.

Also, it was said in a CS that the Zilart used the sleeping gods' Protocrystals to restore Vana'diel after the war, so they had to be around at that era. It is interesting to note that Shiva (whose story relates to the San d'Orian region) resembles an Elvaan, though.

By the time the Zilart did that, the celestials were already gods. The calling of them by Altana took place long before the war, it seems, in pre-war ancient civilization.

By the way, were the Zilart the only race prior to the mothercrystal being split, and Altana shedding 5 tears, or were there others that pre-date Zilart civilization? If it was just the Zilart, then the avatars could just be Zilart from ancient Zilart days before the whole creation-of-the-races thing. Back when the Zilart were minding their own business going about their lives, rather than trying to mess with gods and paradise.

[Sagacious Sundi]

It depends if Kuluu were appearing by then, since the Emptiness was in higher concentration then. Also, by war I meant the war between the Zilart and the Kuluu.

Also again, I could see the Protocrystals being around first, and then those creatures became avatars when they visited those areas.

Also yet again, grrr... forgot what I was going to put here.

[Jeryhn]

All-in-all we do not know. Its impossible to tell if the Zilart were created before or after the shattering of the mothercrystal, especially since they built structures around each individual piece.

We do know that the Kuluu appeared before the Meltdown, but after the original mothercrystal was shattered. Moreover, its not entirely clear that Humes and the other four races of Altana weren't around before the Meltdown, because the mothercrystal was shattered for the express purpose of creating them, and it was definitely shattered well before the Meltdown.

As for the creation of the Celestial Avatars, who knows? They call themselves "True Gods", but are definitely in a hierarchy under that of Altana and Promathia. And they all seem to hail from different places, and represent different races as well. I would say that the Celestial Avatars were created before the Meltdown, but were not of the Zilart race.

[Khamsin]

It depends if Kuluu were appearing by then, since the Emptiness was in higher concentration then. Also, by war I meant the war between the Zilart and the Kuluu.

Also again, I could see the Protocrystals being around first, and then those creatures became avatars when they visited those areas.

Also yet again, grrr... forgot what I was going to put here.

Or they could have been gods before the Protocrystals were created, and only retired to the Protocrystals when they fell into slumber.

I imagine a timeline would look something like:

1) Ancient race of beings going about their business
2) Altana calls a few of them to join her and become gods
3) Lots of time passes, and the gods have established themselves
4) Mothercrystal shattered
5) Zilart and Kuluu war
6) Meltdown

At some point, the Protocrystals are formed and the celestial avatars retire to them and go to sleep. I'm guessing this happens when Vana'diel is separated from Paradise, but hard to say. Could have happened between 3 and 4 on the timeline.

[Septimus]

All-in-all we do not know. Its impossible to tell if the Zilart were created before or after the shattering of the mothercrystal, especially since they built structures around each individual piece.

We do know that the Kuluu appeared before the Meltdown, but after the original mothercrystal was shattered. Moreover, its not entirely clear that Humes and the other four races of Altana weren't around before the Meltdown, because the mothercrystal was shattered for the express purpose of creating them, and it was definitely shattered well before the Meltdown.

As for the creation of the Celestial Avatars, who knows? They call themselves "True Gods", but are definitely in a hierarchy under that of Altana and Promathia. And they all seem to hail from different places, and represent different races as well. I would say that the Celestial Avatars were created before the Meltdown, but were not of the Zilart race.

Since the Zilart built the Arcs to tap the power of the 5 mother crystals, we can be fairly certain that they came after. And the 5 races evolved from the Zilart after the meltdown, I'm fairly certain that it is mentioned in the storyline.

[Kuya]

All-in-all we do not know. Its impossible to tell if the Zilart were created before or after the shattering of the mothercrystal, especially since they built structures around each individual piece.

We do know that the Kuluu appeared before the Meltdown, but after the original mothercrystal was shattered. Moreover, its not entirely clear that Humes and the other four races of Altana weren't around before the Meltdown, because the mothercrystal was shattered for the express purpose of creating them, and it was definitely shattered well before the Meltdown.

As for the creation of the Celestial Avatars, who knows? They call themselves "True Gods", but are definitely in a hierarchy under that of Altana and Promathia. And they all seem to hail from different places, and represent different races as well. I would say that the Celestial Avatars were created before the Meltdown, but were not of the Zilart race.

Since the Zilart built the Arcs to tap the power of the 5 mother crystals, we can be fairly certain that they came after. And the 5 races evolved from the Zilart after the meltdown, I'm fairly certain that it is mentioned in the storyline.

I thought it was that the 5 races come directly from the 5 mother crytals? This also ties into the crystal warriors doesn't it?

[Jeryhn]

All-in-all we do not know. Its impossible to tell if the Zilart were created before or after the shattering of the mothercrystal, especially since they built structures around each individual piece.

We do know that the Kuluu appeared before the Meltdown, but after the original mothercrystal was shattered. Moreover, its not entirely clear that Humes and the other four races of Altana weren't around before the Meltdown, because the mothercrystal was shattered for the express purpose of creating them, and it was definitely shattered well before the Meltdown.

As for the creation of the Celestial Avatars, who knows? They call themselves "True Gods", but are definitely in a hierarchy under that of Altana and Promathia. And they all seem to hail from different places, and represent different races as well. I would say that the Celestial Avatars were created before the Meltdown, but were not of the Zilart race.

Since the Zilart built the Arcs to tap the power of the 5 mother crystals, we can be fairly certain that they came after. And the 5 races evolved from the Zilart after the meltdown, I'm fairly certain that it is mentioned in the storyline.

The problem with this theory is that the Zilart had created the Crystal Warriors before the Meltdown. They're all modeled after the five races of Altana.

[Sagacious Sundi]

Found this while digging through screenshots (just going to type the text):
Yve'noile : We Zilart harnessed the five true crystals' power, divided it elementally, and succeeded in containing it in a smaller form.
Yve'noile : However, during the Meltdown, the energy of these smaller crystals was simultaneously released and spread to the far reaches of Vana'diel.
Yve'noile : Over the centuries, that energy accumulated inside the bodies of the living beings on this planet, causing them to crystallize. Thus they took the form of the crystals that are found throughout Vana'diel.

I'm guessing it was basically an extreme version of how lesser crystals are found on enemies?

Also:
Yve'noile : Particularly, thine inability to communicate with others of thy race casts a shadow over thy development.
Yve'noile : This inability became increasingly evident after the Meltdown divided thee into the five other races.

It is never said whether "thee" is the Kuluu or Zilart. Kuluu would make more sense since the five races don't have the Whisper of Souls. But that would mean that Diabolos created both the Elshimo Tonberries and Cryptonberries, which conflicts with Grav'iton's statement of "Those Kuluu who survived the happenings of that day fled here. However, the power of the crystals left its mark on us. As time passed, our bodies and minds degenerated into the form you see standing before you." I would say Zilart might be more fitting since it clears that plot hole and it makes sense, too.

Also, Yve'noile mentions that Eald'narche DISCOVERED the mothercrystals, possibly meaning that the Zilart (or the majority of them) have never really entered paradise. Although it could mean they knew about them, but they were searching for them.

Also, I think Septy is right.

[Khamsin]

Found this while digging through screenshots (just going to type the text):
Yve'noile : We Zilart harnessed the five true crystals' power, divided it elementally, and succeeded in containing it in a smaller form.
Yve'noile : However, during the Meltdown, the energy of these smaller crystals was simultaneously released and spread to the far reaches of Vana'diel.
Yve'noile : Over the centuries, that energy accumulated inside the bodies of the living beings on this planet, causing them to crystallize. Thus they took the form of the crystals that are found throughout Vana'diel.

I'm guessing it was basically an extreme version of how lesser crystals are found on enemies?

Also:
Yve'noile : Particularly, thine inability to communicate with others of thy race casts a shadow over thy development.
Yve'noile : This inability became increasingly evident after the Meltdown divided thee into the five other races.

It is never said whether "thee" is the Kuluu or Zilart. Kuluu would make more sense since the five races don't have the Whisper of Souls. But that would mean that Diabolos created both the Elshimo Tonberries and Cryptonberries, which conflicts with Grav'iton's statement of "Those Kuluu who survived the happenings of that day fled here. However, the power of the crystals left its mark on us. As time passed, our bodies and minds degenerated into the form you see standing before you." I would say Zilart might be more fitting since it clears that plot hole and it makes sense, too.

Also, Yve'noile mentions that Eald'narche DISCOVERED the mothercrystals, possibly meaning that the Zilart (or the majority of them) have never really entered paradise. Although it could mean they knew about them, but they were searching for them.

Also, I think Septy is right.

Maybe they just thought Paradise sounded like a cool place to be, so they went looking for it without knowing exactly what was in store.

At least now we know what is beyond the Gate of the Gods that they were so obsessed about opening. After the ordeals of rank missions and other plots that involve trying to open the Gate of the Gods, and thwarting those attempts, we finally get to do so in CoP rather casually. lol

[Sagacious Sundi]

One problem with the sleeping gods/Protocrystal avatars once being regular living things:
The terrestrial avatars were created by them, no? Carbuncle and Fenrir gave up some of their power of the sleeping gods to help restore Phoenix. Also, the terrestrials, excluding Carby and Fenrir?, seem to fear the celestials (although this could be because they outnumber them, even without Alex/Odin). This would mean that they had to come before.

A possible solution:
Where do Altana and Promathia dwell when they're not awake or whatever? Inside the crystal line (paradise?) one can only assume. Since the Zilart split the crystals elementally, perhaps the original sleeping gods (the ones who created the terrestrials) were there. Then, the essence of those gods fused with living things, forming the 8 celestial avatars we know. This is probably similar to how the Keeper of the Apocalypse reincarnates in different bodies. Watch Aphmau be an "avatar" of Altana.

I also have a theory I would like to post, but there needs to be a thread discussing the storyline.

[Imitarate]

Imagine that the celestial avatars, the entities sleeping in the crystals, require no fixed form. Like elementals, they're made of their element, not of flesh. However, they have divine qualities, and can appear as flesh. While sleeping for however many thousands of years they've been asleep, perhaps they latch into the collective consciousness of Vana'diel to adapt to the myths and legends that have sprung up about them.

Shiva's myth in San d'Oria would shape her physical form, and even if the story didn't mention her being elvaan, it being a story told there would mean most people who tell it and hear it would envision her as an elvaan. But she's still the Ice Queen, so not -exactly- elvaan.

Now Titan, he's got an interesting issue, because he's got the old visions of the Galka, the current story of the crystal races, and the antican fear-worship to deal with. So he becomes less humanoid as time goes by, looking more and more monstrous as time passes by with antican civilization being the closest, and their fear of the fierce spirit in the Cloister of Tremors begins influencing him more. Now we have giant in a diaper.

Odin and Alexander, though, are harder to fit into this scheme. However, if they were never put into a crystal slumber like the 6 Quon/Mindartia avatars were, then they wouldn't be influenced by the same thing. The continued existance of the Dark Rider, at the least, would keep Odin's image stable, and he certainly doesn't look like one of the crystal races or one of the local beastmen.


This is all way too much thought, and probably much more than the design team put into it, but this could explain certain aspects of appearance, and certainly the legends.

[dedalius]

Watch Aphmau be an "avatar" of Altana.

An avatar controlling a puppet whaaaaaat? *head explode*

[Khamsin]

One problem with the sleeping gods/Protocrystal avatars once being regular living things:
The terrestrial avatars were created by them, no? Carbuncle and Fenrir gave up some of their power of the sleeping gods to help restore Phoenix. Also, the terrestrials, excluding Carby and Fenrir?, seem to fear the celestials (although this could be because they outnumber them, even without Alex/Odin). This would mean that they had to come before.

Simple, modify the timeline as such:

1) Ancient race of beings going about their business
2) Altana calls a few of them to join her and become gods
2.5) They create the terrestrial avatars
3) Lots of time passes, and the gods have established themselves
4) Mothercrystal shattered
5) Zilart and Kuluu war
6) Meltdown

Or, 2.5 could have occured at the same time as 4, since I seem to recall the terrestrials stating they'd return to being mere beasts if the mothercrystal was made whole again.

Basically, no matter how early in the timeline the celestial avatars make an appearance, there's always a time before it. So just assume that, however ancient the avatars are, that the race of people from which they came are just that much more ancient.

[BRP]

I'd like to bring something up.

I don't believe there is any actual "space" in the world of Vana'diel. Those colored stars are actually the planes of existence where we battle the celestial avatars. This goes well with the whole final battle of CoP.

[Sagacious Sundi]

I'd like to bring something up.

I don't believe there is any actual "space" in the world of Vana'diel. Those colored stars are actually the planes of existence where we battle the celestial avatars. This goes well with the whole final battle of CoP.

Yve'noile calls Vana'diel a planet, which makes me thinks there's other worlds in the FFXI universe. Or maybe, since Vana'diel is referred to as the god's playground, Vana'diel is set in its own little bubble or whatever you wish to call it.

No "space" would make sense since the stars play an important part with the celestial avatars. Of course there could be a space, and the elemental stars are maybe giant crystals or something in space.

EDIT: Another idea: Paradise is in the sky (but the dead person's "lifeforce" goes to the Crystal Line? Or the crystals are more of a gateway to paradise.)

[Amadeo]

ah thx for the info.

started to make some movement lines. Situation of the World? Any suggestion corrections or more data adding?

http://homepage.hispeed.ch/Studio-DL/ffximap.jpg

I'm pretty sure that in the SAM AF quest, Gilgamesh said that Norg was founded based on survivors of the attack on Tavnazia. And after they fled thats where they settled.

May not have been the SAM AF quest, but I definetely recall him saying so.

[yoyo]

All i'm hoping for in the near futur is :

- 3 Kings pop condition change to trigger
- Make Abjuration drop in KS99 or on Wyrms, Hydra, Cerberus
- More More More More HNM
- other way for Relic weapon to be obtain

i do love the game, but me and the story dont get along together very well

[Zalius]

All i'm hoping for in the near futur is :

- 3 Kings pop condition change to trigger
- Make Abjuration drop in KS99 or on Wyrms, Hydra, Cerberus
- More More More More HNM
- other way for Relic weapon to be obtain

i do love the game, but me and the story dont get along together very well

hello good sir, i see you have met my friend endgame

[yoyo]

well isnt what endgame people want?

more challenging HNM and alot of them.

yes AV is challenging and a pain, but that's only 1 HNM isnt?

what about giving us a couple like 10-20 more to make all HNM LS happy

SE gave us the Wyrms, Tiamat, Jormy, Vrtra, Ouryu, Fafnir, Nidhogg, Bahamut.

Tiamat = Fire
Jormy = Ice
Vrtra = Dark
Ouryu = Earth
Fafnir = Fire too
Nidhogg = Fire too
Bahamut = all element

so what about SE finish what they started by giving us more Wyrms with the rest of the elemant attribute.

Light wyrms
Wind Wyrms
Thunder Wyrms
Water Wyrms

there is enough area in FFXI to put them somewhere. i mean seriously it would be more fun to fight many different elemental HNM.