Naruto

[Ayn]

I'm quite surprised the Senju managed to do so well against Izanagi though. Sounds like complete BS even lol.

Also, if I'm not mistaken (think it was mentioned during the Danzo fight), I *think* Izanagi already uses up a pretty hefty amount of chakra. If it's like any of the other Sharingan techniques (amaterasu, tsukuyomi, susano'o), it's no surprise it'd take a pretty heavy toll.

So true, might be a pain to fight someone who can hax out of your trump card, but they can manage that maybe once? Then be chakra drained after?

[Salodin]

And blind.

[Yugl]

Danzo cheated by using senju DNA to extend duration and number of uses, nothing more. Izanami was created because brothers would steal eyes, etc, and the only way to beat izanagi was to outhax it.

They've previously stated you need both to perform Izanagi. See the second half of this response for proof. As for the initial problem of overuse, Izanami hardly makes sense as a solution because Izanami carries the same risk as using Izanagi. In other words, what's the difference between using Izanagi to undo someone's Izanagi and using Izanami to stop them from using Izanagi? Having more Sharingans means you circumvent Izanami the same way you would an overwriting Izanagi.

Um...wtf are you talking about? Danzo had izanagi, but extended its duration via senju DNA mixed with orochimaru experimentation.

http://www.mangapanda.com/93-57473-1...apter-510.html

As you can see, he says that some boast of Izanagi, but only have an incomplete form.

What makes the form incomplete is unknown, but my speculation is this incompleteness is because he didn't have Rinnegan/Saged bloodline at the moment.

1. Sharingan derives from Rinnegan (Shown by the earlier chapter I linked where Madara does Unclean World Jutsu)
2. Izanagi derives from Banbutsu Sōzō (See the chapter linked within this post)
3. Banbutsu Sōzō is a combination of Yin (Spiritual Energy; creates the cartoon) and Yang (Physical Energy; Animates the cartoon)
4. Each time Danzo used Izanagi, he used a significant amount of chakra since he wasn't of the natural Sage bloodline
5. Izanagi's creation comes from the Uchiha line and the animation comes from the Senju line
6. Having the Sharingan and Senju cells is necessary, but not sufficient, for receiving the Rinnegan

So basically, I believe you need at least Uchiha + Senju for Izanagi. The bloodline is necessary to have complete Izanagi (No heavy chakra duty). You need to have both and X (Whatever Madara did) to gain the Rinnegan.

[Salodin]

Or you could just use an absurd amount of chakra because it's incomplete. Danzo isn't a Uchiha, so using Uchiha abilities requires more chakra just like how itachi told kakashi he needed an Uchiha body to use his eye correct when they fought in konoha. Izanagi just turns the attack on you into an illusion, obviously it's working as intended.

I'll concede there isn't enough evidence for either theory though. I believe Senju DNA isn't needed because Izanami doesn't require it (see itachi), and considering Izanami is the anti-izanagi I'd think it stands that you couldn't beat a senju-uchiha ability with a pure Uchiha one.

[Yugl]

I'm not sure what you're saying since you responded with a portion of what I said (Specifically, point 4 and the original speculation of my post) and then said either theory is possible. Senju requirement has been stated here if you're debating that. If you are, do know that chakra constraints due to non-bloodline relation and Senju requirements aren't dichotomous.

[Abandon]

What do you mean? Everytime Kakashi uses his damn eye it drains a shit ton of chakra from him; that's the entire reason he covers it up when not using it, so it doesn't drain his ass dry. Unless I'm misunderstanding, then by all means, continue to rub cocks together until next week

[Yugl]

Everyone agrees that non-Uchiha take a chakra hit. The debate is whether Izanagi requires Senju cells.

[Phoenyx]

Everyone agrees that non-Uchiha take a chakra hit. The debate is whether Izanagi requires Senju cells.

Just seems to be another retcon. You have ObiTobi saying Izanagi requires Senjuu and Uchiha chakra in one chapter, but in the chapter that Itachi uses Izanami he only says that Izanami was created to stop the abuse of Izanagi. If Izanagi required both chakras, how the hell was it being abused? Presumably since the Sage of the Six Paths, the only people to achieve the both chakras thing in any form are fighting in this war.

I just see it as ObiTobi's posturing to proclaim himself the reincarnation of the Sage of the Six Paths when in fact having Senjuu chakra isn't necessary for the ability itself, but it might allow you to use it multiple times like Danzo did. inb4 "Kishi forgets!"

[Zilo]

In all honesty I'm surprised anyone even believes anything Obito says anymore since it seems he's been a chronic liar since his appearance in the manga, or master troll. Take your pick.

They way I see it is that Tobi states that you need both because:
1) Uchiha cells give the ability to have access/cast the spell
2) Senju cells to have the mp to cast said spell since nonbloodline individuals get hit harder when using said spells

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Danzo was like a Galka Mage thing his damnest to be the best there ever was while Madara was a Taru Mage with rape gear and stats. Tobi is an abomination of the two races, a Galtaru perhaps? Or Galku?

[Serif]

In all honesty I'm surprised anyone even believes anything Obito says anymore since it seems he's been a chronic liar since his appearance in the manga, or master troll. Take your pick.

They way I see it is that Tobi states that you need both because:
1) Uchiha cells give the ability to have access/cast the spell
2) Senju cells to have the mp to cast said spell since nonbloodline individuals get hit harder when using said spells

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Danzo was like a Galka Mage thing his damnest to be the best there ever was while Madara was a Taru Mage with rape gear and stats. Tobi is an abomination of the two races, a Galtaru perhaps? Or Galku?

Elvaan

[Yugl]

Just seems to be another retcon. You have ObiTobi saying Izanagi requires Senjuu and Uchiha chakra in one chapter, but in the chapter that Itachi uses Izanami he only says that Izanami was created to stop the abuse of Izanagi. If Izanagi required both chakras, how the hell was it being abused? Presumably since the Sage of the Six Paths, the only people to achieve the both chakras thing in any form are fighting in this war.

I just see it as ObiTobi's posturing to proclaim himself the reincarnation of the Sage of the Six Paths when in fact having Senjuu chakra isn't necessary for the ability itself, but it might allow you to use it multiple times like Danzo did. inb4 "Kishi forgets!"

Why couldn't they have obtained DNA from their enemies?

[Phoenyx]

Why couldn't they have obtained DNA from their enemies?

No reason they couldn't, but if they did -and- they had the knowledge/ability to use it as effectively as Madara or Orochimaru (or Kabuto?) I'm thinking we'd have heard about it. And maybe we will. For all I know Madara could end up divulging all about failed experiments by others that led to his success or something like that. But the way I interpret Itachi's explanation of Izanagi and Izanami is one that is really old. Like way before Konoha. So Madara hadn't been born yet, and no one else had a raging hard-on for any of the Senjuu yet so "being inside me forever" wasn't on anybody's mind.

Again, just my interpretation of events thus far with the knowledge at hand. Also, it seems a little odd to have a technique that requires the combination of the two strongest bloodlines in the series defeated by one that only requires one of those bloodlines. And not only that, but the nature of Izanami was to allow the person stuck in the loop to break free by "repenting" or whatever. Would the Uchiha really want all these folks that were abusing Izanagi (in your case with their combo DNA) running around just 'cause they said they were sorry one time? For me, it doesn't line up.

[Tajin]

Itachi can't possibly have more knowledge of the Uchiha bloodline than Madara, back to the think tank for you.

[Salodin]

You're right, itachi knows less about the bloodlines then tobidara; that's why he was able to use the anti-izanagi ability with out senju juice.

/sarcasm off

[arus2001]

Hard to say if ET chakra reserves played a role there or not. In the end, it's also more than just making someone say sorry. I interpreted it as literally genjutsuing someone until their personality changes to the point where whatever they'd done would practically seem abhorrent to them. Which, depending on the condition of release, could totally result in someone becoming a different person psychologically. Since we haven't seen Kabuto since, though, I have no idea if we could call him a "good guy" now or not and how he'd cope with things he's done in his life up until then. Whatever good he'd even be is another matter entirely.

[Yugl]

No reason they couldn't, but if they did -and- they had the knowledge/ability to use it as effectively as Madara or Orochimaru (or Kabuto?) I'm thinking we'd have heard about it. And maybe we will. For all I know Madara could end up divulging all about failed experiments by others that led to his success or something like that. But the way I interpret Itachi's explanation of Izanagi and Izanami is one that is really old. Like way before Konoha. So Madara hadn't been born yet, and no one else had a raging hard-on for any of the Senjuu yet so "being inside me forever" wasn't on anybody's mind.

Again, just my interpretation of events thus far with the knowledge at hand. Also, it seems a little odd to have a technique that requires the combination of the two strongest bloodlines in the series defeated by one that only requires one of those bloodlines. And not only that, but the nature of Izanami was to allow the person stuck in the loop to break free by "repenting" or whatever. Would the Uchiha really want all these folks that were abusing Izanagi (in your case with their combo DNA) running around just 'cause they said they were sorry one time? For me, it doesn't line up.

You're confusing Senju cells and Hashirama cells. The cells using during these battles have been Hashirama cells that grant forest-type jutsus. However, Senju cells, in general, are just the clan.

Are you saying that no Uchiha had "desires" for Senju; therefore, they couldn't have had Senju cells? I'm sure Madara and Hashirama never had their moment. As friendly as they were.

I think you and others are overemphasizing the two bloodlines issue. Even Danzou, someone not native to either line, had access to Sharingan and Senju cells. Remember that these genjutsu aren't combating each other. See what Itachi says here at the bottom-left panel. If you check this upper-right panel, you'll realize that Izanami isn't visual genjutsu. Instead of affecting the opponent's vision, you affect their senses by mimicing your senses and their senses using the Sharingan.

The point of Izanami isn't to make people repent. The point is to make them accept the circumstances as they are instead of trying to rewrite every little problem they encounter.

[Salodin]

Dude, Danzo had a giant fucking hashirama head popping out his shoulder. Now you're gonna try and tell us that there's a difference between Senju and hashirama cells? Even though Hashirama is the only Senju that matters?

[Xno Kappa]

Just seems like a blatant retcon to me.

[Yugl]

Dude, Danzo had a giant fucking hashirama head popping out his shoulder. Now you're gonna try and tell us that there's a difference between Senju and hashirama cells? Even though Hashirama is the only Senju that matters?

What the fuck does Danzo have to do with the original Uchiha clan not being able to use normal Senju cells to the same degree as Madara/Orochimaru used Hashirama cells?

[Vaspinne]

This is why I only post when a chapter immediately comes out and only comment on the new chapter. All this theoretical "what if" debating about things that are analyzed through what we've seen in the manga, but that has never and probably will never be confirmed one way or another by the author himself is just so tedious.