Naruto

[Zilong]

To be honest, I wanted Cloud to titfuck Tifa the entire time I played FFVII

[Ivaden]

So did I. I kind of liked Yuffie, too, but I knew that wasn't going to happen.

[orson]

Read it all, so don't worry I got life(?), and all I have to say is you're still a whiny bitch over a cartoon. I'll humor myself by responding to some of your points, though, starting with the easiest ones.

1) Sasuke is far from my favorite character in Naruto. Can't remember the last time we saw Neji or Shikamaru, but it's always been a toss-up between them. I realize assuming he's my favorite character is the easiest way to digest the fact that I'm sort of over all the crying about Sasuke, but it's wrong, sorry.

2) You're a whiny bitch because you're writing multiple paragraphs in response to simple questions about a character, not because you dislike and critique him. People have been far more effective with a simple, "Fuck Sasuke," but you're writing chapters. I'm used to this behavior from Vajra, but that's because he's typically long-winded and likes to look shit up on some Naruto wiki to begin with.

3) I said you want him to get his ass kicked for revenge. I know you're taking this at the literal sense of what I'm saying to try and provide another point against me or something, but I would hope you'd be able to understand that. I'll throw out another one of my amazing analogies for you: did you want Cloud to get revenge against Sephiroth for killing Aeris? Yeah, suck it.

4) No build up? Sasuke's always wanted revenge for something, what kind of build up do you expect? He wanted to kill Itachi, he managed that, and in the process found out Konoha was in the wrong with the massacre. Sorry, but I don't understand why you aren't finding that to be his motivation for what he's doing now. Do you really need to be spoonfed his thought process about this? He lived for a long time assuming his brother was corrupt, when it was the very village he grew up in that forced his brother to do what he did, and now he wants to take out the people who forced that upon Itachi. Do you really need multiple chapters explaining that to you? I would hope, since you seem somewhat intelligent, that you would have gathered that to be his motivation by now.

5) Shallow and pointless character. That's a good one. If not for Sasuke, what the fuck would Naruto's motivation be? Without Sasuke, Naruto is useless as a character. We'd have just another DBZ style manga where random villain #59 comes to Konoha, is slightly stronger than Naruto, Naruto gets whooped, trains for a week, comes back and beats villain #59. Have you ever watched the Naruto movies? That shit would be all that the manga is. Do you not see the conflict that's setting up for Naruto? He doesn't want to hurt his BFF, but he wants to be Hokage. The prospective Hokage surely would never let an internationally wanted criminal go, would they? So what's Naruto to do? We don't know that yet. We're seeing Sasuke slip further and further to where it's going to be a struggle in Naruto's mind whether he can even go through with fighting/killing or letting Sasuke escape or whatever.

You seriously, seriously can't be that stupid not to see this kind of shit. I'll accept people saying Sasuke this, Sasuke that, fuck 'em, etc., because some people just do not like characters. I dislike Lee, fuck Lee. But you, on the other hand, are trying to give justification for hating Sasuke that makes absolutely no sense, and instead are just another member of what Haiko said (hi btw), the Sasuke hating bandwagon.

1) Coulda fooled me based on the way you're defending him.

2) Whining denotes that you're in a position to call my reasons childish and without basis. All I can say I guess is that you're being idiot because you can't see the writing on the wall. Sorry but just saying something like "Fuck Sasuke" or "Fuck Lee" for no real reason is the epitome of being a whiney bitch.

3) No, I disagree, I don't have a desire for a fictional characters to get revenge. Yes the death of Aeris may generate emotions of sadness and anger (or happiness in some rare people) but that's entertainment. The ability of the source to create empathy towards that character brought out a genuine emotional response. Whether a character getting revenge in the story is going to make me feel happiness, sadness, anger, etc. is wholly up to whether the source material appeals to those emotions when the time comes. It's also very plausible that the author may provide something more satisfying by not have the character exact revenge. This often is the case given that revenge is usually considered an ignoble act.

This is different from the anger I feel towards the shoddy writing and lame plots as demonstrated by Sasuke's story. I want Sasuke to die or be beaten because I think it will improve the story because his current direction and character haven't really added anything for a very long time. Not for any ill placed sense of a character needing revenge (again probably why I find Sasuke's constant goal of revenge fucking boring.)

P.S. The Aeris' thing isn't an analogy, just an example... Again hard to know if you're trying to be funny or just don't understand how those work.

4) Ok, I'll give you a bit of credit, there was build up towards the incredibly weak motivation Sasuke has. The problem is that you missed the point of what I meant by build up. In Naruto's last fight with pain you saw massive build up they demonstrated both Pain and Naruto abilities even hinting at stuff like being able to throw the Fuuten Rasen Shuriken. Sasuke's build up to his fights have 0 build up other than "Orochimaru is dead and look at my new jew eye!" The formula for Sasuke at the moment since after the Itachi fight (which I actually liked) has been Sasuke acts like a badass > Sasuke gets pwned > Sasuke pops out random ability that saves him, rinse repeat. There's no dramatic build up it's literally climax after climax.

On the topic of his motivation he spent years believing 1 thing that his brother was evil and that he was the soul perpetrator behind the assassination of the Uchihas. Then some shady ass dude that is the supposed leader of the most evil, sneaky, backhanded organization out there claims otherwise and Sasuke buys it. Suddenly out of no where Kishi suddenly makes Sasuke remember, "Oh, I had my doubts about Itachi being evil he was crying the night of the murders." BULLSHIT Where was that doubt when he attacked Itachi for the first time? Where was it when he fought his best friend to go to Orochimaru? Where was it when he spent 3 training and plotting on the best way to kill Itachi? He does a 180 spin so fast you'd swear he was bipolar. You're telling me that Sasuke is that willing to believe just because some random dude tells him that? It's a weak twist and creates less than believable motivation.

Sasuke almost showed some believable human like qualities when Killerbee was literally going to stomp out team Taka. Sasuke remembered Team 7 and maybe felt some kind of remorse but no he totally forgot about that in three seconds. Kishi let him push the "I win button" without even one of his team members being seriously out of commission for any time at all.

5) Oh ho ho, this one is the best. Naruto's only motivation is Sasuke? Are you blind or just really bad at comprehending this stuff? Yes Sasuke is a big motivator for Naruto but hardly his only one and probably at this point only his main one because so many things are tied directly to Sasuke. First of all why is Naruto motivated to save Sasuke? There are a lot of reasons none of which are as pathetic and shallow as Sasuke's motivation which is again, "RAWR, I'M ANGRY AND SAD." You'd swear he was The Hulk.

Naruto is not only motivated because he cares about Sasuke. He also doesn't want to break his promise to Sakura. Lastly he feels that he is responsible for the wrongs that Sasuke has done. All of these lead directly into him maturing and seeing that his "way of the ninja" would be compromised if he couldn't save one friend or keep a promise. He believes that without keeping his "way of the ninja" then ultimately he shouldn't become Hokage.

Sasuke isn't even Naruto's only motivation though. Naruto is motivated to strive for peace. He is motivated to protect his friends, village, and himself. He was motivated to compete to be the strongest ninja though after defeating Pain that may be quite low. Also finally he is motivated to put an end to Akatsuki and it's ambitions, whatever they may be.

Seriously to comparing Naruto and Sasuke right now is laughable. Sasuke's anger is based on petty feelings and believing crazy ass plot points. Naruto's anger when it happens usually is justifiable (I.E. Orochimaru referring to ownership of Sasuke, Deidara killing Gaara, Kohona being destroyed, etc.) Sasuke is so one dimensional and single tracked he's back to the same character he was in the first little bit of the series (ignoring the crazy ass powers.) Naruto on the other hand has been shown to have matured and evolved.

On a final note I agree the movies are contrived and formulaic to have no development or impact on the overall series plot or characters. This makes them a great deal weaker than the overall story and are as forgettable as filler episodes from the anime. The thing is they don't detract much from the overall unless you are just getting sick of their common themes. That's why I don't really care about them being pretty low caliber. On the other hand though Kishi's single track, repetitive development of Sasuke's story, motivation, and character since the death of Itachi has started to detract from the overall story.

edit: Phew... OK, Sorry for the wall of text to others.

[Ivaden]

Just gonna skip over the first three because we can go back and forth about those all day because you seem much more interested in "winning" an argument than having a debate.

4) How is there going to be any sort of build-up when we're already aware of the Mangekyou Sharingan's abilities? I'll put it this way again: do you really want multiple chapters of Sasuke powering up an ability we already know he has, because it's a bloodline ability? Seriously, you're acting like him using the Mangekyou Sharingan's abilities are coming out of left field. Were you surprised that Hinata could use the Byakugan too? I mean c'mon man. Everything Sasuke has used, we've seen before from Itachi, which is exactly what brought up my initial question of why the double standard. They have the same abilities due to their crazy-eyes, so why is it bullshit when Sasuke uses it and not when Itachi used it?

Also, about Madara, why wouldn't Sasuke believe him? Sasuke knew nothing about Madara, but Itachi told him that Madara had helped the night of the massacre. Madara saves Sasuke after the fight with Itachi, and reveals that he's Madara. He seen Madara's Sharingan; Madara even said it himself that he figured Itachi had planted that trigger Amaterasu in Sasuke because he knew Madara would show Sasuke the Sharingan to trust him. Not only that, Sasuke had just finished doing what he trained to do for however long by killing Itachi, and (oh no I'm gonna say it) he was emotional about it and vulnerable. As persistent as Madara was in trying to get Sasuke to listen to him, I really can't be surprised that Sasuke was convinced. Even if it does turn out to be one big lie told by Madara, Sasuke is obviously impressionable. He did run off with Orochimaru after all. As many times as Madara has had story time with various groups of people, there hasn't really been any inconsistencies in his story, either. Also, Sasuke never thought it through about Itachi until after Madara's story... so, having never known anything but seeing his parents killed by Itachi, what reason would he have to really doubt Itachi was the bad guy? I realize in our world we constantly suspect the government of conspiracies, but I don't even recall government being questioned in this manga. I doubt Sasuke sat there and even once thought to himself, "Hey maybe Konoha made him do it, he was a GOOD brother not an evil guy!1!!"

Though, had you even once mentioned the fact that after being told by Madara that the entire thing Itachi went through was to protect Konoha, and as a result Sasuke has in his mind to attack Konoha, as a reason for your dislike of his "weak motivation" or whatever, I'd have agreed with you. I think that part of this whole thing doesn't even make sense, but it's quite obvious Sasuke has never really thought rationally throughout the manga, why start now? It very well may be a personality trait of his, but once again I don't need multiple chapters of manga telling me this unlike you seem to want, it's just my own assumption.

5) You mention Naruto's promise to Sakura. What, or who, was the promise about? Sasuke. He feels responsible for the actions of who? Sasuke. Motivated to protect his friend and village, I'll give you, but guess who his BFF is? Sasuke. He wants to protect Sasuke from everyone else as much as he wants to protect everyone else from Sasuke. Do you see that internal conflict with what he wants to become as Hokage? He wanted to be the strongest ninja, maybe I'll give you that, but he was much more interested in being stronger than who? Sasuke. Akatsuki? He assumes Sasuke is a part of them now, but he also wants to protect himself as you say, so no shit he wants to put an end to Akatsuki.

As far as Sasuke being "so one dimensional and single tracked," I agree. I guess it's just the personal preference of you (and apparently the general population lol), but it doesn't bother me. I don't really care to have a super in-depth character at this point. After the disappointment which was Pain, I'd much rather just have a psychopathic supervillain, and Sasuke is seemingly well on his way to becoming that. That may be the reason I dislike the dislike of him, because things are actually going the way I hope them to as far as his character.

And finally, saying Sasuke's story and everything else since the death of Itachi detracting from the overall story, to me, is ridiculous. The story is shaping up to be Naruto vs. Sasuke (not like we didn't see that coming all these years), so why do you feel his side of the story is detracting from anything? Just like Vajra's crazy theory about Yin and Yang demon chakra suggested, Naruto and Sasuke are exactly like Yin and Yang. We've already seen a lot of maturing and progression from Naruto throughout the story, and now we're seeing Sasuke's side.

I guess in the end we just have two very different opinions on this. You see Sasuke as nothing but a deterrent from the story, and I see that the focus on his character is anything but sidetracking. The chapter a few weeks ago pretty much setting in stone, told by Madara, that Naruto and Sasuke were going to be polar opposites 'til the end solidified the justification of showing so much Sasuke recently, at least to me. But for your raging to have us get to this point, when you clearly understood that comparing Sasuke haters to Sasuke was not serious, and even then my post after that saying something followed by "On a serious note," about potential voice actors for Raikage, is silly. I still have my opinions and respect yours, but I never expected anyone to get so butthurt over an obvious (and in your opinion, poor) attempt at a joke.

[Gredival]

My feelings about Sasuke are negative, but I recognize his role in the story is important. Madara says it: Naruto and Sasuke was fated as much as Harashima vs. Madara. This is the driving theme of the manga. Naruto, son of the hero Yondaime and heir to will of fire, vs. Sasuke, Uchiha's avenger.

The problem with Sasuke is not his role, but in the execution of said role. There is so much more that could be done with Sasuke and what we have gotten of Sasuke is pretty poor. He's so unrealistic that it shatters the suspension of disbelief. Vengeance seekers can be very compelling antiheroes and antagonists. If you think about Sasuke's history, then by all means Sasuke should be a sympathetic character. If your whole family was killed in a massive conspiracy you would be pretty bent on revenge too. Then you found out it was all some massive plot by your village? You'd probably want a little retribution too (if anything my main gripe with the basic concepts of Sasuke's characterization is that he should be pissed off more at Itachi for screwing up his life so badly).

It's the poor execution that kills Sasuke. The way in which Sasuke has fallen isn't portrayed well enough to be received tragically.

We don't see Sasuke grapple with the fact that his "bonds" are making him weaker or agonize about leaving the village. His revenge turns him into a one sided charatcer. This wouldn't be a problem if Sasuke had always been an "avenger". While to an extent it has always been clear Sasuke is driven by something dark, Naruto as a story at that time had been ALL about the companionship between Team 7. Sasuke risks his life on his very first mission to save Naruto. Yet he gives all of that up when he becomes a little jealous of Naruto. He basically face-heel-turns too fast, even if his overarching character motivation is still legitimate at this point. So instead he comes off as emo, shallow, and a that people dislike him as part of the story and not merely as a villain.

(Note I also consider Pain's Heel-Face-Turn inappropriately abrupt as well and a bad ending to an otherwise awesome villain)

And after hating Itachi all his life he forgives everything bad Itachi did. Just because Itachi needed to kill all of the Uchiha's doesn't mean he had to force Sasuke into being an avenger by telling him stuff like "Come before me when you have these eyes" and "You know why you're weak? Not enough hatred!" A little conflict of emotion would be great there. This is especially bad form when for some reason he suddenly loves his brother enough to want to kill all of Konoha but Naruto who was like a brother is discarded so easily when Sasuke chases Orochimaru.

[Max™]

I wanted to take over Seph and kill Cloud for being exactly what Sasuke is, a whiny emo kid with a lame backstory, and shitty character development.

[arus2001]

It took me a while to get past tittyfucking Tifa.

[Tetrarien]

My only problem with Sasuke is that he doesn't make any sense when it comes to his revenge. For years he hates Itachi for killing his clan. He wants revenge against the guy that committed those murders. Then he finds out that *gasp* Madara actually helped Itachi take out the Uchiha. But he completely ignores that, and actually joins forces with the man that aided in the destruction of the clan.

I have absolutely no problem with his abilities, since they're jutsu that he's assumed to have anyway due to having the Mangekyou. And the development of Susanoo was perfectly fine, as it was just a rib cage when first activated and then grew as he is pushed more and more during the fight. And while it protects him, IIRC he can't do anything offensively while he's protected by it.

To be honest, I wanted Cloud to titfuck Tifa the entire time I played FFVII.

Hey, at least he gets some just before the end of the game.

[Parshias]

Its pretty bad when a series has not just one, but several secondary and supporting characters with more character growth than one of the main characters.

[Draggy]

I wanted to take over Seph and kill Cloud for being exactly what Sasuke is, a whiny emo kid with a lame backstory, and shitty character development.

same here D: Sephiroth was my hero when he killed Aerith, stupid annoying whiny girl.

*didn't read all the naruto stuff above, sorry D: im tired and cant focus on th mass of words lol*

[Hyriu]

WHAT DID I START

[BadKarma]

WHAT DID I START

Its like a bomb went off in here. THERE WAS A FIREFIGHT.

[Kaelan?]

My only problem with Sasuke is that he doesn't make any sense when it comes to his revenge. For years he hates Itachi for killing his clan. He wants revenge against the guy that committed those murders. Then he finds out that *gasp* Madara actually helped Itachi take out the Uchiha. But he completely ignores that, and actually joins forces with the man that aided in the destruction of the clan.

Makes sense to me. The village's higher ups essentially screwed over his brother for life, were responsible for the deaths of pretty much every single person that meant anything to him like a power hungry mafia boss, then covered up the entire situation; to top it all off it happened while he was still a child, ensuring he would be pretty much scarred for life from it (although admittedly the writing is pretty bad at conveying exactly how much of an impact this should actually have on someone, but that's besides the point). I don't see in what conceivable world this is a weak motivation.

What more would they have to do for it to not be a weak motivation, bludgeon uchiha children to death with baby seals?

[Ivaden]

Its like a bomb went off in here. THERE WAS A FIREFIGHT.

http://torontoist.com/attachments/to...5_dafoejpg.jpg

[Parshias]

Makes sense to me. The village's higher ups essentially screwed over his brother for life, were responsible for the deaths of pretty much every single person that meant anything to him like a power hungry mafia boss, then covered up the entire situation; to top it all off it happened while he was still a child, ensuring he would be pretty much scarred for life from it (although admittedly the writing is pretty bad at conveying exactly how much of an impact this should actually have on someone, but that's besides the point). I don't see in what conceivable world this is a weak motivation.

What more would they have to do for it to not be a weak motivation, bludgeon uchiha children to death with baby seals?

What's hard to believe is that Sasuke wants to take it out on the entire village. Sasuke himself has stated he doesn't just want to kill the elders, he wants to take out all of Konoha. He's only going after Danzo because Pain beat him to the punch and blew the village up.

Sasuke going after those who arranged his clan's execution? Yeah, sure.
Sasuke going after them and the entire village they reside in? Uh... what?

[Ragnus]

I just read it as Sasuke wanting to destroy everything that the first Hokage stood for and cared about just as Konoha forced Itachi to destroy everything that was Uchiha.

Really weak argument but it's the only reason I can think of as to why he wanted to destroy the whole village.

[Sunrider]

What's hard to believe is that Sasuke wants to take it out on the entire village. Sasuke himself has stated he doesn't just want to kill the elders, he wants to take out all of Konoha. He's only going after Danzo because Pain beat him to the punch and blew the village up.

Sasuke going after those who arranged his clan's execution? Yeah, sure.
Sasuke going after them and the entire village they reside in? Uh... what?

Sasuke sees the villagers as getting fat and happy off the peace bought with his clan's blood. For this, he holds everyone responsible.

[Zilong]

I think he should exact vengeance on himself, seeing how his own existence is the one causing Itachi most pain.

I mean he's the only kin he decided to spare after he killed the entire clan out of love, yet he was forced to make Sasuke hates him the most to get him to advance and get as powerful as he could possibly be through that. Then Sasuke went ahead and do the worst fucking thing possible to get power by giving himself to Orochimaru, hence forcing Itachi to clean up his fucking mess in the end, all this when Itachi's probably already dying from the mysterious plot disease.

Itachi should've snuffed the little bitch at start and just spend the rest of his life bossing everything his magenkyou sharingan.

[Tetrarien]

Makes sense to me. The village's higher ups essentially screwed over his brother for life, were responsible for the deaths of pretty much every single person that meant anything to him like a power hungry mafia boss, then covered up the entire situation; to top it all off it happened while he was still a child, ensuring he would be pretty much scarred for life from it (although admittedly the writing is pretty bad at conveying exactly how much of an impact this should actually have on someone, but that's besides the point). I don't see in what conceivable world this is a weak motivation.

What more would they have to do for it to not be a weak motivation, bludgeon uchiha children to death with baby seals?

I was talking specifically about working with Madara. It makes no sense for Sasuke to be working alongside Madara when he knows that Madara helped kill off the clan. Considering the absolute hatred he had for Itachi, Sasuke should be trying to kill Madara every chance he gets at this point. What you said about the village elders is true, but I wasn't talking about that situation. Then again, as others have mentioned Sasuke planned (maybe still is planning) on taking out the entire village despite the fact that the only ones responsible for the massacre were the elders.

[The_OG_Nelta]

The fuck did I miss the last two pages?

I LIKE SASUKE TOO! SOMEONE FIGHT WITH MEEEEEEEEEE!