Naruto

[Uzor]

Tobi was the one who used the nine-tails to attack Konoha. Madara used it to personally attack the 1st Hokage.
I think that's been proven because the "Madara" that attacked Konoha and the 4th Hokage had the time/space ability, so I personally think your whole question is invalid.

Now for the assumptions;
Real Madara probably died far before that considering he still looks to be in his prime, so unless he discovered a jutsu that stopped him from aging, he would have had to died shortly after he fought with the 1st Hokage. But that also leaves the question as to how he knew about Nagato.

Thing is; wouldn't the 9-tails loathe Tobi just as much as Madara if Tobi was the one to manipulate him during the attack on Konoha? He seem utterly uninterested in Tobi, whereas he willingly gave Naruto all of his power when Madara emerged.

I've always guessed Tobi is a a clone of Madara of sorts. He said himself in the last chapter that eh attained the 1st's wood Jutsu during his battle with him, and that "others have unsuccessfully merged with it". Like I said earlier; my guess is that Zetsu and Tobi are his first experiments to merge the Uchiha and Senju genes together, and that Nagato is his third attempt. Proving it successful, he probably went ahead and inserted them in himself. So I'd say my question has a lot of validity

Also; when's it been proven that Madara don't have space/time jutsu? We haven't really seen the full extent of Madara's powers. Hell, we haven't even seen him use Amaterasu, nor genjutsu.

[Souj]

I'll ignore the space/time sharingan for the moment. I'd assume he would have used it by now by some extent, but we know he knows his body is completely expendable.I guess we'll know for certain by the end of the fight. But we dont even know if he can use it anymore even if he has it now that he has rinnigan.
I'll throw in something else instead.
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"madara" fighting 4th is wearing a mask just as Tobi has always done, while real Madara has never been shown to wear a mask ever. His attitude seems way more like "fake madara's" And their fighting style is way different. Granted one was a 1 on 1 fight, but "fake madara abused the hell out of space/time and used no other jutsus, while Real Madara has used no space/time jutsu and used a plethora of other jutsu.
ttis of course could be explained by saying madara just needed to concentrate solely on speed and escaping from 4th's attacks, I just think there's enough tiny hints to say otherwise.

new thread title: Naruto's Conspiracy Emporium!

[Thunder]

The real Madara couldn't have used Nagato to get the rinnegan and inserted it in himself because Nagato had the eyes up until fake madara took them. Also, he would need to fuse his sharingan with the awakened rinnegan in order to keep his abilities. Real Madara MUST have awakened the rinnegan in himself, with his own eyes because he has his old sharingan.

And really quickly, the person who attacked kohana with 9tails also met with itachi, and that's how itachi was able to set the amaterasu trap in sasuke for those eyes of whoever it was. That means, if it was real madara who attacked kohana, then his eyes have to be in fake madara - or else itachi wouldn't have been able to set the trap because he never saw the eyes. This means either A) real madara was the one who fought the 4th, and tobi took madara's eyes after he died(why the fuuu doesn't he have the rinnegan by default?) or B) tobi WAS the one who attacked the village with the 9tails.

[Souj]

Itachi met Tobi when they slaughtered the Uchiha together, which was way after the konoha attack
and yes, tobi was the one who attacked Konaha with nine tails and fought the forth. (according to me anyways!)

As for why nine-tails doesnt hate Tobi; He could possibly just not remember it. Tobi freed the 9-tails from Kishuna and genjutsu'd it. He was released from it shortly after and made a fool of by the 4th. From what we know of Madara, it seems like he kept 9-tails around like a pokemon.

[Thunder]

Yeah, uchiha slaughter happened way after, but the person who fought minato had the same mask/hair when it showed flashbacks with itachi. I still don't like how you're sure it was tobi who did the attacking though there's no 100% evidence, just circumstantial ie. he "acted" like tobi did with the spacial abuse and stuff. Which I guess is pretty good evidence, but that would be the easiest thing for kishi to write past - he wouldn't even need to spend time explaining why madara did it because it would be just 'cause. Edit: Although, shouldn't Madara not have needed to throw 9tails into a genjutsu if he was able to summon it at will like he tried in the last chapter? All he needed to do was release it to be able to summon it according to the dialogue between him and kabuto. I think that's some steller evidence for Madara already being dead before the kohana attack.

as far as I'm concerned, the story up until now can be explained a few different ways - unless someone has any other cool ideas.

[TheTaru]

Guessing Tobi was the one that used the nine-tails to attack Konoha. Real Madara somewhat implies that he awakened the Rinnegan shortly after his fight with the first hokage, though I guess I could be wrong about that. If he wanted to destroy Konoha, why would he need the nine-tails when he had the Rinnegan? Meteors and shit, dawg. It just wouldn't make sense for real Madara to have been the one to do it.

[Deadgye]

To paraphrase: Almost everything Uzor and Thunder said over the last two pages is wrong. Or has so many loose ends it might as well be wrong.

Spoiler: show

Read this chapter; it's quite interesting looking back at it. Here, Tobi says "Two of the six paths in the same being!" about him obtaining the power of Uchiha and Senju; and then about Nagato he said "You are the third path".

I really don't like this translation. The literal japanese makes it sound more like he's saying "Now there are only two people with eyes of the sage." And he's definitely not saying he's the third of the sixth paths. It's almost literally "Third Person of the great sage."

It's pretty much saying that Madara was the second person to become the sage(have the rinnegan) and that Pain was the third.

Spoiler: show

The more I think about it, the more sense it makes that he had three kids. Imagine it; there's essentially 6 Chakra affinities, and 6 "Paths". It makes sense that each child would inherit 2 Chakra types from him; the Uchiha inherited Fire and Lightning (Blaze), Senju Earth and Water (Wood), and the daughter Wind and Ying/Yang. Naturally, as time progressed, not everyone in the clan keeps those exact affinities as they mate with people outside the clan; but the Uchiha still has a strong Fire affinity, while the Senju has a strong Water affinity, and the Uzumaki has a strong Ying/Yang affinity or Wind affinity (not much are known about them other than their sealing techniques, really).

You went really out of your way to almost make up ways to get that to be 6 things. First off, those are not affinities. We went through what an affinity is above. Second.. you can't seperate fire/lightning, earth/water, and then not seperate ying/yang just so you arrive at the nice number of 6.

How can they be madara's eyes if pain had them? Don't forget he didn't always have the rinnegan (pain that is), and it's a little far fetched to think tobi implanted madara's eyes into a young boy for a insignificant town, with out any body even noticing a new set of eyes. This doesn't even take into account that madara obviously used both normal sharingan, ems, and rinnegan in the chapter, which means his eyes can go back and forth between them; something pain was never able to do. I don't think it's ok to assume pain didn't wake up one day and go "Oh hey, I have a sharingan too!" lol.

We'll have to look at the timeline more closely, but I think Madara could have been "dead" by the time Pain got his eyes. Also, taking into account that he can't go sharingan works perfectly if they were transplanted and if they weren't. Kakashi is another person who got his transplanted and he can't transform his eye back to normal. It's either full power or super new full power.

I'd have to say, based on what we've learned the past few chapters, Nagato HAD to have awakened the eyes after the attack - otherwise Madara would have been alive when he awakened them, which it seems like he wasn't. If he got the eyes AFTER the attack, then that supports my theory about Nagato being an experiment made by Madara to awaken the eyes in himself.

This makes no sense at all.

Why couldn't that "Madara" be the real madara and have the time/space ability? Oh, and also: why did the 9tails react to edo madara but never to tobi if tobi was the one who controlled the 9tails during the attack?

Kyuubi didn't give a shit about Tobi controlling him for a few minutes. Real Madara had him under his control for a while, back in ye yonder days. Why is it that everytime someone mentions plotholes with Naruto it's because they're incorrectly remembering what happened.

And really quickly, the person who attacked kohana with 9tails also met with itachi, and that's how itachi was able to set the amaterasu trap in sasuke for those eyes of whoever it was. That means, if it was real madara who attacked kohana, then his eyes have to be in fake madara - or else itachi wouldn't have been able to set the trap because he never saw the eyes. This means either A) real madara was the one who fought the 4th, and tobi took madara's eyes after he died(why the fuuu doesn't he have the rinnegan by default?) or B) tobi WAS the one who attacked the village with the 9tails.

We've known B was true and a fact for a long time now. I don't know why you feel the need to question it and even go as far as saying it's not likely.

The only loose ends are how Pain got his eyes. Either they are Madaras eyes, or the Uzumaki have some relation to the great sage and that allowed him to achieve the eyes. I like the theory that the great sage himself was actually an Uzumaki. But I also personally believe that Pain was using Madara's eyes.

[Uzor]

The real Madara couldn't have used Nagato to get the rinnegan and inserted it in himself because Nagato had the eyes up until fake madara took them. Also, he would need to fuse his sharingan with the awakened rinnegan in order to keep his abilities. Real Madara MUST have awakened the rinnegan in himself, with his own eyes because he has his old sharingan.

I didn't say he gave Pain the Rinnegan to implant it in himself; I said used Nagato as an experiment when he inserted his and the 1st's DNA in to him - and when realizing that it worked, he did the same to himself. Not that he planned on taking Nagato's eyes and insert them in to himself.

Guessing Tobi was the one that used the nine-tails to attack Konoha. Real Madara somewhat implies that he awakened the Rinnegan shortly after his fight with the first hokage, though I guess I could be wrong about that. If he wanted to destroy Konoha, why would he need the nine-tails when he had the Rinnegan? Meteors and shit, dawg. It just wouldn't make sense for real Madara to have been the one to do it.

He didn't apply he awakened it shortly after his fight with the first Hokage, he said that he awakened it shortly before his death. Fact of the matter is; we don't know how long Madara lived. There's several people that has cheated death in Naruto; the zombie-duo and Orochimaru for example. And the Uzumaki clan is famous for their longevity. Mito lived before the construction of Leaf well in to the reign of the third Hokage, for example.

The reason I didn't separate Yin/Yang is because they're two faces of the same coin. You can use them separately, but it's not like the other nature chakras. And yes, I know you went through affinity, but a lot of people still have dual affinities and not just dual knowledge of an element. Rinnegan users have an affinity for every element, for example. It's what makes them special.

As for the mask during the attack on Konoha; it's a different mask than the one Tobi used before the war arc. It can mean nothing, and it can mean everything.

[Ayn]

If he wanted to destroy Konoha, why would he need the nine-tails when he had the Rinnegan?

Sorry to add more to this but..

-Tobi said something along the lines of (or at least implied heavily) that the fight with Hashirama left "Madara" pretty messed up.
-Edo Tensei'd Madara has been restored to something 'beyond' his prime. So what we're seeing (conceivably) is a Madara that's 1) Pre Hashirama-fight injuries and 2) Even stronger than he was back then.
-He only noted that he awoke the Rinnegan 'shortly before his death'. We're not exactly sure when Madara died. There's the possibility that he could have awakened the power of the Rinnegan, but his body was pretty fucked up from fighting Hashirama that he wasn't able to fight to the fullest extent of his ability (see: Itachi).

This is also going on a limb, too, but as for why Madara would need the fox even if it was real Madara? He seems like a cocky SOB in some ways, but not a stupid one. I know it's rough to apply this logic (or anything) to Shonen manga, but he'd already been stomped on a 1 v 1 against Hashirama. He'd be going up against the entirety of Konoha -- having the 9 tails would be covering his bases.

Anyway, someone invent time travel and snag us a few chapters from the future kthx.

[Salodin]

He got the rinnegan after his fight with the first. That explains half those questions.

He's basically back to life, full power just before his death with rinnegan and all. We still don't know the circumstances around his death, but I doubt they're natural.

[Abandon]

Forgive me, i've been tailgating for the florida/georgia game, and i'm extremely drunk right now. However, i think why the kyuubi reacted to madara and not tobi is simple. Tobi summoned him and was roflstomped within minutes by minato. Madara is the nigga that fought the first, AND his wife which was the original jinchuriiki, and apparently walked away. who would you fear?

[Odin'sLaw]

Forgive me, i've been tailgating for the florida/georgia game, and i'm extremely drunk right now. However, i think why the kyuubi reacted to madara and not tobi is simple. Tobi summoned him and was roflstomped within minutes by minato. Madara is the nigga that fought the first, AND his wife which was the original jinchuriiki, and apparently walked away. who would you fear?

bro has a point, but you'd still know tobi's chakra and you'd be aware of him even if he did abuse you for only a handful of minutes before but i do agree madara is boss

on that note was the comets/meteors ninjustu? we saw some hand signs but not sure how you'd beable to pull a moon sized rockx2 down :/ i could see it been space/time jutsu and making a worm hole appear dragging it towards earth with its gravitational pull

[Thunder]

It's the same thing pain did twice now(once vs 8tails naruto, and another time while edo'd vs itachi/bee/naruto). Madara has the 6 paths of pain and can do all of those tricks with the rinnegan.

[Odin'sLaw]

It's the same thing pain did twice now(once vs 8tails naruto, and another time while edo'd vs itachi/bee/naruto). Madara has the 6 paths of pain and can do all of those tricks with the rinnegan.

pain used the earth itself to creat the ball of doom, madara's came out of thin air

[Ratatapa]

Anyway Tobi could be shisui and he didn't actually died?

[Salodin]

No, shisui lost his eyes. And the uchiha clan pretty much confirmed his death when they attempted to interrogate Itachi over the circumstances of his death.

[Eurell]

The only reason the 9tails reacted to Madara is because he tried to summon him. Tobi has never done that (since it's been in Naruto). The 9tails didn't do shit before hand, even with Madara throwing meteors and shit at everyone.

Edit: And When Madara and Kabuto were talking about his 'prime', they were referring when he got his rinnegan, so it's not pre hashirama fight.

[Ayn]

I worded that poorly, Eurell:

I said "Pre Hashirama fight injuries" -- as in the Edo's form isn't suffering from whatever (if we go by Tobi) debilitating injuries he suffered from during his fight with Hashirama.

..I think this is another case where we're kind of saying the same thing, but I might have worded it badly.

[Eurell]

I worded that poorly, Eurell:

I said "Pre Hashirama fight injuries" -- as in the Edo's form isn't suffering from whatever (if we go by Tobi) debilitating injuries he suffered from during his fight with Hashirama.

..I think this is another case where we're kind of saying the same thing, but I might have worded it badly.

I gotchya now. I'm confused though about what condition the edo tensei people's bodies come back in. Nagato still had some fucked up legs, but everyone else came back perfect (or beyond perfect in Madara's case). I'm sure this was discussed to death when Nagato showed up again, but I must have missed it lol, and it throws me off everytime this comes up.

[Ayn]

Yeah.. I think the weird cases here were:

Nagato: Restored, but still gimpy until he used Rinnegan hax.
Kakuzu: Revived with all hearts seemingly intact
Itachi: (I don't think this has been 100% confirmed) but restored without whatever illness he had slowing him down.
Sasori: Revived in a 'real' body (so to say) instead of his puppet body.

The only thing that really comes to mind is something Kabuto mentioned along the lines of Tobirama being the person who created the jutsu, but Orochimaru "perfecting" it in some way (I can't remember if Kabuto noted/implied that he'd refined it even further), so maybe there's some additional magical ninja stuff he's able to tweak?

Which brings up another question: What exactly is he using Anko for?