Naruto

[Sunrider]

The Zero System!

And here I was worried I was gonna look like a dork for mentioning it. Glad I'm not the only one who made that connection.

[Drzoidburg]

Yea, more like can see what the next logical step is going to be in an attack or something like that.

This. I'll just break it down and ruin or enlighten you all as to what Kishimoto is doing. The Uchiha represent individuals in this world that utilize the thought process known as Intuition. The Senju rely on the process of sensory data uptake.

The Sharingan has the unactivated stage, 1, 2, 3 tomoe, mangekyo, eternal mangekyo, and finally the rinnegan. The psychological analog of this is that as intuitive humans begin to take in data, they begin to make patterns. Over time, when the individual is comfortable with the patterns, the brain can recognize this at what feels like instantaneous speeds. Think about riding a bike or how driving used to be a lot, but is now a rather simple task...same concept. So when they say the Sharingan can read an enemy and the user can move one step ahead of them as if they're reading their mind, the real life analog is that when an intuitive person knows the variables and patterns that make up social interactions, they can assess a situation rather quickly and predict what type of decision the person would make based upon the fact that humans are creatures of habit. The "power and skill" of the sharingan and intuition get stronger as a person observes and learns more. The real life analog of genjutsu is that an intuitive person can have a master plan, but they'll play dumb as if they're none the wiser, but in the end be all like "just as planned huehue." Sharingan upgrade = Midlife crisis when current thought process/approach to a situation doesn't work and forces the individual to think abstractly and from a different perspective. Think masterminds, plotters, long range thought processes, domino effect seers, etc.

The Senju would be people who "live in the now" or dont quite understand complex processes, but are still strong willed and believe what they believe even though they can't logically justify why. Think religious people who cannot be persuaded otherwise. They don't possess "eyes" to see long range, but they have the Will of Fire or "blissful ignorance" that compels them to give their hardest when approaching a situation, even if they are wrong in some all knowing macro-perspective.

Now, run with me. The Buddha basically taught the scientific method (inductive and deductive reasoning ==> Intuition) and sensory data, which are the modern day translations (it'd take too long to explain, so sorry for no explanation). Not one or the other, but both. The sage of the 6 paths had 2 bitch-ass sons. One got the mind (intuition), one got the body (sensory data). He chose the younger one to be the successor (aka, there are an asston of subjectively "dumb/unintelligent/can't use their brains" type people compared to how many "intellectual" people there are). The older brother (intuitive smartie) got pissed off and essentially went to war.

Blah blah, generation after generation ==> Madara vs 1st. Madara loses, 1st wins. Madara gains rinnengan despite everyone thinking he died. So for some reason, his eternal mangekyo became a rinnengan after his battle, but before his death. Oh guess what? That was probably when Madara admitted that The 1st was his equivalent or even superior, and he finally acknowledged the power of the will of fire (sensory data uptake), but also acknowledged that he put up a damn good fight (intuitive mind). Oh shit, nothing left to live for because he was proven wrong + finally accepting the Senu as equal? What's that? The Sage of the 6 Paths used both? Wahhh, no way ==> EMS evolve to Rinnegan via Enlightenment.

Yin/Yang, Mind/Body, Intuition/SensoryData. Balance in everything. The answer lies in the middle. Aka, acknowledge the power of both --> Return to the original source. Eternal Mangekyo = ass tons of perspectives, but still relying on intuition and manipulation through understanding why/how things work, but only when they learn to perceive sensory data to get the full picture do they upgrade to the Rinnengan. Rinnengan has ripples, much like a wave. Recall the dumbed down version of the double-slit experiment: "When you look, you only see one thing. When you don't look, you see the array of effects." Psychological analog? When you look through your perspective alone, you only see one thing. When you look from many perspectives and put it all into context, you see all the possibilities and ripple effects (aka, the whole picture ==> "higher perspective" == "higher conscious level" == "awake" (as neo-hippy retard conspiracy theorists put it).

Who will likely be the next sage? Naruto. Who will be enlightened along the way? Sasuke and maybe some others. Will Naruto die? Probably, but not until after he passes on his teachings. Do I know much more? No, because I'm ignorant when it comes to the nitty-gritty in buddhism. I'm also sleepy, so there you go. Research more on buddhism and you'll see the continuation of the analogies Kishimoto keeps making through abstract portrayals of the same story/life lesson that all humans are learning (even if none of us realize it).

[Souj]

you are on an internet forum that was founded on a Final Fantasy MMORPG in a thread about a cartoon with a Pokemon avatar and you just now are worrying about looking like a dork? I think that ship has long since sailed (as it has for everyone else)


Jesus fuck a huge post appeared between the time I started typing this post and finishing it
and hell no I'm not reading all of that.

[Drzoidburg]

you are on an internet forum that was founded on a Final Fantasy MMORPG in a thread about a cartoon with a Pokemon avatar and you just now are worrying about looking like a dork? I think that ship has long since sailed (as it has for everyone else)


Jesus fuck a huge post appeared between the time I started typing this post and finishing it
and hell no I'm not reading all of that.

Don't hate a nigga for breakin shit down. It was all necessary :3

[Charismatic]

The breakdown was appreciated.
Naruto just got a lot cooler after reading that.

[Xno Kappa]

The reasoning on how/why Madara was able to achieve the rinnegan after his battle with the 1st was definitely interesting.

[Ayn]

. . .

::Slow clap::

Seriously, interesting read. I'd always thought of the Sharingan as a Zero System/increased intuition (there was a character in GetBackers that kind of did the same thing), which was why I always that it was one of the cooler abilities until increased Mangekyo shenanigans.

[Sunrider]

you are on an internet forum that was founded on a Final Fantasy MMORPG in a thread about a cartoon with a Pokemon avatar and you just now are worrying about looking like a dork? I think that ship has long since sailed (as it has for everyone else)

Good point.

[Tsuneo]

That video is pretty cool, but how much of it is actually factual? The whole thing is non-canon as far as I know.

[Charismatic]

That video is pretty cool, but how much of it is actually factual? The whole thing is non-canon as far as I know.

Wasn't almost everything IN that video stated already in the Naruto manga? Just... not animated.
Maybe I'm wrong but I don't remember any of that being 'new'.

[Xno Kappa]

That's the way I took it, besides the obvious liberties of making new scenes with certain attacks like Madara's sharingan seeing the huge shuriken beforehand, everything else was pretty much lifted straight out of the manga. It's not like it's some stupid filler plot anyways, I would think Kishi would want direct involvement of animating such a huge part of the story.

[Drzoidburg]

. . .

::Slow clap::

Seriously, interesting read. I'd always thought of the Sharingan as a Zero System/increased intuition (there was a character in GetBackers that kind of did the same thing), which was why I always that it was one of the cooler abilities until increased Mangekyo shenanigans.

1. Thank you XD
2. It sounds like Zero System is based upon intuitive thinkers too. The "gundam" can overload the human brain when it predicts too many possibilities. This is just like when a person in real life is like, "I don't know what to do! There aren't enough patterns to cross reference and eliminate possible outcomes! I can't make a decision! /shutdown and cry"

Humans are incapable of coming up with ideas/concepts that have never been observed in some fashion. That's why it's impossible to think of something if someone says, "Imagine something never thought of or seen before". Nah, we need trace amounts of consistency to even begin to piece together that there is an overarching variable [x] for some set of seemingly unconnected particulates.

aka: Everything humans produce is just some abstract interpretation of a pattern they discovered in life. This is why art has the ability to contain 1000 words. Many patterns can be seen within a piece, depending upon the knowledge contained within the human, and how many patterns they've discovered amongst the wealth of observations they've collected over time.

ex: Lady Gaga is so deep! vs Lady Gaga is a rip off! Well of course she's deep, she's good at seeing patterns and abstractly relating them to other seemingly unrelated patterns in life. Well of course she's a rip off, aside from technology, humans still use the same emotions, sensory data processing, sensory data uptake, make the same mistakes, etc etc, so of course she's going to sound similar to other people: They're all observing this thing called Life.

I hope this explains a little about life/art/manga/almost everything that involves humans.

[arus2001]

Main problem I have with that theory is it isn't balanced. So, Madara goes on to be enlightened, but why is there no equivalent to those of the Senju by embracing the Uchiha methods? It almost makes it sound like the sage really chose his eldest son, but went through the guise of choosing the younger to test him into the eventual needed evolution. Anyway, while there may be parallels to real world belief systems, maybe even homages, there's still something missing.

[Drzoidburg]

Main problem I have with that theory is it isn't balanced. So, Madara goes on to be enlightened, but why is there no equivalent to those of the Senju by embracing the Uchiha methods? It almost makes it sound like the sage really chose his eldest son, but went through the guise of choosing the younger to test him into the eventual needed evolution. Anyway, while there may be parallels to real world belief systems, maybe even homages, there's still something missing.

Yes! I hit this roadblock too. The only crappy part is that Nagato's past is shrouded in mystery (ty Kish-daddy). Lets see. This is all I can formulate as I sit on the toilet and type this out.

1. We know jack shit about the Uzumaki except that they have exceptional chakra control (lets roughly say potentially equivalent to good sense of control over their body's sensations just to try to try and see if we get any leads). That is to say, they may not have the brains, but they most definitely have the bodies (Yang).

2. Nagato first awakened his Rinnegan when he saw his parents killed. He didn't know why the Konoha ninajs killed his parents (accidentally mistaken for enemies, except that they DID kill them). The second time his Rinnegan awakened was when Yahiko and Ren were about to die (Hanzo was literally sitting there saying "kill Yahiko and the girl lives" if my memory recalls correctly).

Analysis of 2: There seems to be a connection between pain (tr0l0l, his name he chooses to go by) and his activation of Rinnegan. Now, he doesn't know WHY those Konoha ninja decided to kill him, but I assume he had to make some judgement using inductive reasoning by his brain going "These ninja that we are "allies" with just slaughtered my parents. Why would allies do this?" Clearly, he didn't udnerstand that it was a mistake because he slaughtered them. Perhaps in retrospect, he realized how irrational it can be to make a decision without knowing fully, thus only being compelled to reactivate the Rinnegan when he was forced by Hanzo to do something where he didn't like both options. What happens when humans approach topics they don't like? They have mid-life crisis(es) and approach the problem from angles they don't normally try.

Conclusion of Analysis: I'd argue that because he was forced to use inductive and deductive reasoning because of Hanzo's scenario paired with his high emotions (he didn't want either to die and hated seeing the destruction of those he cared about), he was forced to use what the Uchiha use (inductive and deductive reasoning) to come up with a plan that could solve a seemingly unsolveable problem (kill the guy threatening to kill Ren or Yahiko rather than have a friend die).

(It's also parallels that Naruto is doing the SAME thing: Trying to solve a seemingly paradoxical insolvable problem, but he seems to always solve it with FRIENDSHIP even though everyone is like "psh nigga, dat won't work." Then they see it work and they're like, "this shit is so corny...")

3. Running of off symbolism which makes Kishimoto wet apparently, I'd say that the Uzumaki are more likely to "return to the source" than any senju because their symbol of being a whirlpool. Perhaps it symbolizes an outward spiral, but it could damnwell symbolize a spiral going in. Starting from far out, but slowly performing a beautiful dance between push and pull, approaching the center/root source/center from a macro-perspective.

See, I can't come up with anything strong until Kishi reveals more. When he had Madara tell us about his past and gave us a timeline, I could look at say, "Ah! Nigga you so clever!" but with the Uzumaki side...not much has been revealed beyond they were gingers and thus lacking souls, thus needed Kurama to fill the void of their otherwise empty lives. (I'm jk to any gingers reading this. I only say it because I think it's absolutely hilarious that some human came up with that theory and it caught on as an insult).

If you think of anything, type it! I dunno if this thread is against brainstorming, but when free-abstract thinking brains come together, that's when patterns can be cross-referenced with incredible efficiency. However, trying to group think in a group with people who must be told how to think is awful and counter-productive (look at modern education and grouping methodology). Silly edu majors...I have so much job security ahead of me it's disgusting.

[Phoenyx]

2. Nagato first awakened his Rinnegan when he saw his parents killed. He didn't know why the Konoha ninajs killed his parents (accidentally mistaken for enemies, except that they DID kill them). The second time his Rinnegan awakened was when Yahiko and Ren were about to die (Hanzo was literally sitting there saying "kill Yahiko and the girl lives" if my memory recalls correctly).

Think it was more like a brief awakening of the Rinnegan after his parents were killed and a permanent awakening when Yahiko, Konan and Nagato were attacked by a ninja during their training with Jiraya. From that point on, he had the eyes for good. By the time they met up with Hanzo, Nagato had been using the Rinnegan for several years at least.

[altwight]

Naruto is the devil.

gotta love them butthurts.

[altwight]

very interesting readup btw.

[Souj]

Eh, almost every single thing in the manga is based on something else. Just because most or parts of an ideal fits, doesn't mean he'll follow it through to the end.
The tailed-beasts are all based off of mythological animals (mostly japanese myths. many ninja names are taken from historical warrior from japan. Jariaya, Tsunade, Orochimaru are taken from the book Tale of the Gallant Jiraiya. There are lots of things they have in common with the source material, but it does and can deviate.
Not saying it won't happen, just that it could.

[Ayn]

Sorry to dig up another discussion on this, but Zealot and I were talking today, a few points:

"Tobi" is an anagram of "Obito" with a missing letter (similar to a missing eye). That one is a bit of a stretch, I admit, but also:

Kakashi's Kamui and Tobi's unique Sharingan ability seem oddly similar.

I'm not sure about this one, but the times where Tobi casually ripped off an arm . . did that correspond to the same side of Obito's body that was crushed in the accident?

Of course, that doesn't account for how a then younger (like.. 15-16 years old maybe?) Obito could go toe-to-toe with Minato. But then who knows? There's no guarantee that it was the same masked man.

I dunno, while I've thought the theory is silly, maybe there's some connection there, even if it isn't explicitly -him-.

[Tsuneo]

I still believe he's linked to Madara in some way despite not actually being him.

http://i37.mangareader.net/naruto/364/naruto-7374.jpg

edit: I think at most he has Obito's eye, but I don't believe he's actually Obito. I don't know if Kakashi and Tobi both having a space time jutsu really means anything though. Kakashi only can use Kamui while using Mangekyo. Tobi using his with a normal Sharingan. We don't even know if Tobi has Mangekyo.