Naruto

**Salodin** · 2012-08-14 18:56

Originally Posted by Odin'sLaw

the panel is just his normal eyes not his MS eyes so...

So....its ambiguous at best, but we do know for every other ability he's used, he's "labeled" it, even for abilities like amaterasu.

Either way, I feel its more likely he's just casting generic genjutsu #34 while using his ms cause well, he's fighting against an opponent he needs to use his ms for (why go in and out of it constantly?). Its not like he's a heavy genjutsu user any ways, id be surprised if he used one ever again in the series (sans izanami).

**Deadgye** · 2012-08-14 19:04

So....its ambiguous at best

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v44/c408/3.html
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v45/c413/8.html

He is undoubtly using his right mangekyou to to cast a very strong genjutsu. Regardless of whether it's actually "tsukiyomi" or not it is definitely an ability from his mangekyou.

**Salodin** · 2012-08-14 19:32

To be honest, I don't even know what were arguing about any more. But all I'm saying is, if he has tsukiyomi, he hasn't explicitly used it or said it. He has a sharingan though, and because of it he already has the best genjutsu around by default.

**Deadgye** · 2012-08-14 19:59

The whole argument was originally something about how Obito's eyes both have the same power, or maybe the one tobi has is different, and then how sasuke's right eye was supposed to be the power to put out the flames and that he didn't have tsukiyomi. Then proof that he used [tsukiyomi] was posted and ignored, then you said it's not tsukiyomi. It kind of went off to a tangent.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure a normal sharingan doesn't make you good at genjutsu. Kakashi and Sasuke were never quite apt at it. Itachi was just a beast at it, able to cast a genjutsu with just one finger or something silly. It was his right(?) mangekyou that came with genjutsu.

**DrClout** · 2012-08-14 20:32

With all those plausible guess work and what not. . . why hasn't anyone brought up the fact that it's possible Sasuke could have gotten NONE of that without Itachi's brotherly forehead poke.

If anything Tobi's shown you it should be just because there's a form of relation with the "materials" being used doesn't mean the end "product" will be same. All in all, just seems like you guys are looking far to deep into something that doesn't matter nor progress anything.

**Xno Kappa** · 2012-08-14 20:39

Yeah. I always just assumed Itachi gave him those powers with the poke.

**Eurell** · 2012-08-14 20:51

Sasuke is better at genjutsu than Itachi. They said that during their fight together. And that was before he had MS. So Sasuke blasting off strong genjutsu with MS doesnt mean anything at all, since its completely expected.

Also, Infinite tsukiyomi doesnt have shit to do with Sasuke either. Madara having Tsukiyomi or the 10tails doing it or w/e the fuck the plan is does not mean that sasuke has it.

**Salodin** · 2012-08-14 21:09

Originally Posted by Eurell

Sasuke is better at genjutsu than Itachi. They said that during their fight together. And that was before he had MS. So Sasuke blasting off strong genjutsu with MS doesnt mean anything at all, since its completely expected.

Also, Infinite tsukiyomi doesnt have shit to do with Sasuke either. Madara having Tsukiyomi or the 10tails doing it or w/e the fuck the plan is does not mean that sasuke has it.

This. Just cause he can use genjutsu (on a level stonger then itachi even though I don't really think that's a fair comment to make by kishi) doesn't mean he has tsukiyomi. Also, I don't see the proof that he has it, I see proof to the contrary, for instance: his ms is shown during his fight with bee, and bee is affected, but he doesn't feel 3 days worth of torture in a second like kakashi did. You see him stabbed, but he gets out of it a few seconds later thanks to the hachibi. The technique was just completely different.

Also, he used ms sharingan to interrogate the ninja for info, not exactly what tsukiyomi was used for (which is to actually disable the ninja/kill them).

Tl;dr, just cause his jew eyes are activated during genjutsu doesn't tsukiyomi make. Don't know why we want to make that leap. Its not that big of a deal, but still lol.

**Juben** · 2012-08-14 22:20

well interesting chapter but on a funny note would not mind if toby randomly got hit by a nail / missile / an arm and an explosion don't think i have forgotten anything.

**Abandon** · 2012-08-14 22:22

wut

**nivlakian** · 2012-08-14 22:27

All the things that Kakashi has kamui'd in the past.

**Deadgye** · 2012-08-14 22:45

Sasuke is better at genjutsu than Itachi. They said that during their fight together. And that was before he had MS. So Sasuke blasting off strong genjutsu with MS doesnt mean anything at all, since its completely expected.

At best he was equal to Itachi when he was deathly sick. They did not say that he was better during their fight; Itachi agreed that Sasuke had gotten good enough that a genjutsu battle would be pointless.

Also, Infinite tsukiyomi doesnt have shit to do with Sasuke either. Madara having Tsukiyomi or the 10tails doing it or w/e the fuck the plan is does not mean that sasuke has it.

You've completely misinterpreted what I said, or rather I feel like you didn't know why I said it. You're all going on and on about how it's not Tsukiyomi because it doesn't look like Itachi's and how it doesn't have the same exact effects. Meanwhile Tobi is planning to use something he specifically called (an infinite) Tsukiyomi that will not have the same effects as Itachi's. You therefore can't say that Sasuke's Mangekyou Genjutsu is not Tsukiyomi because it doesn't have the same exact effects as Itachi's.

Also, I don't see the proof that he has it, I see proof to the contrary, for instance: his ms is shown during his fight with bee, and bee is affected, but he doesn't feel 3 days worth of torture in a second like kakashi did. You see him stabbed, but he gets out of it a few seconds later thanks to the hachibi. The technique was just completely different.

Also, he used ms sharingan to interrogate the ninja for info, not exactly what tsukiyomi was used for (which is to actually disable the ninja/kill them).

See above. Tsukiyomi is not exlusively Itachi only moon above time twisting mind rape genjutsu. Tobi is planning to use a Tsukiyomi that would obviously not work if that was the only effect it could have or the only way it could be used.

Honestly if feels like you all jumped in without reading the preface of this debate. At the end of the day it doesn't even matter if what he's using isn't actually a Tsukiyomi, what matters is that he is using a specific genjutsu that is only available to him through the use of his right mangekyou.

**Salodin** · 2012-08-14 23:22

Originally Posted by nivlakian

All the things that Kakashi has kamui'd in the past.

God bless you for even understanding that.

Also, didn't he cast one of those genjutsu with out ms? This is pointless, what we call it doesn't matter, but the effects do. Unfortunately for the sauce, he apparently can't make some one go through 3 days of whatever he wants in one second of real time, like itachi could do. Whether we label any ms genjutsu as tsukiyomi doesn't matter, even if it "technically" is, which it probably isn't, it still isn't as awesome as itachis version.

**Ayn** · 2012-08-15 02:15

Not to drag this out even further..

..But wouldn't the fact that Tobi's ultimate plan being "Infinite Tsukuyomi" indicate the fact that the Tsukuyomi isn't a dojutsu unique to Itachi (unlike Shisui's / Obito's)?

**Damane** · 2012-08-15 02:55

well it at least that explains how fuckign deidara got out of that Dimension Kakashi send him to. You think Deidara (bomb man) knows the identity of Tobi? Its clear that Tobi took him out of the Dimension in return for introducing him to Akatsuki?

**vadre** · 2012-08-15 03:33

Was the first time he used Kamui on anyone and it was on the move, just severed Deidara's arm. The guy with 5 hearts (forgot his name, it's been ages) reattached it after they found it.

**Eurell** · 2012-08-15 05:56

Originally Posted by Ayn

Not to drag this out even further..

..But wouldn't the fact that Tobi's ultimate plan being "Infinite Tsukuyomi" indicate the fact that the Tsukuyomi isn't a dojutsu unique to Itachi (unlike Shisui's / Obito's)?

The debate was not if it was an Itachi exclusive move. It's whether or not Everyone with MS has it.

Originally Posted by Deadgye

At best he was equal to Itachi when he was deathly sick. They did not say that he was better during their fight; Itachi agreed that Sasuke had gotten good enough that a genjutsu battle would be pointless.

Spoiler: show

Sasuke, using nothing but a normal sharingan, beat Itachi's tsukiyomi. He's an expert, and with his lesser weapon, beat Itachi the novice, according to Zetsu. Theres always the option that Itachi lost on purpose, but we can only go by what has been said.

You've completely misinterpreted what I said, or rather I feel like you didn't know why I said it. You're all going on and on about how it's not Tsukiyomi because it doesn't look like Itachi's and how it doesn't have the same exact effects. Meanwhile Tobi is planning to use something he specifically called (an infinite) Tsukiyomi that will not have the same effects as Itachi's. You therefore can't say that Sasuke's Mangekyou Genjutsu is not Tsukiyomi because it doesn't have the same exact effects as Itachi's.

How is Tobi's plan any different from Itachi's tsukiyomi? It controls someone else's reality, shows them w/e the user wants. It only fucked up Kakashi because thats what Itachi wanted it to do. Didn't he use it on Sasuke another time just to show him mmurdering the clan? He didn't hurt him with it, he just used it to control time and show him stuff, which is exactly what Tobi/Madara want to do.

Honestly if feels like you all jumped in without reading the preface of this debate. At the end of the day it doesn't even matter if what he's using isn't actually a Tsukiyomi, what matters is that he is using a specific genjutsu that is only available to him through the use of his right mangekyou.

Or you did. The debate was about people's 3 eye techniques. Whether or not Sasuke has tsukiyomi is exactly what the debate was about, so it matters very much (in this context) whether or not he is using tsukiyomi, or just happens to be using genjutsu while he has MS up.

**Deadgye** · 2012-08-15 07:55

The debate was not if it was an Itachi exclusive move. It's whether or not Everyone with MS has it.

Can nobody understand that I am only brought up the Itachi exclusivity as a counterpoint to show you why the logic used was incorrect? The initial post that mentioned everyone having tsukiyomi's was shut down right on the spot, and it's pretty self-evident that it's wrong. I apparently ignored Gredival's subsequent posts on the matter when he brought it back up since it should have been obvious at that point that he was wrong.

Sasuke, using nothing but a normal sharingan, beat Itachi's tsukiyomi. He's an expert, and with his lesser weapon, beat Itachi the novice, according to Zetsu. Theres always the option that Itachi lost on purpose, but we can only go by what has been said.

Can you even into genjutsu? He is skilled at genjutsu and that skill, plus him taking a tsukiyomi before, definitely helped him in being able to break out of it. However being able to break out of a powerful genjutsu does not mean you are skilled at using genjutsu, or rather it does not mean you're better than the other person at it. That logic would mean that Bee/Naruto are better than both Sasuke and Itachi at genjutsu, and they only have normal eyes! Those pages do absolutely nothing to support your argument. Sasuke didn't even cast anything.

How is Tobi's plan any different from Itachi's tsukiyomi? It controls someone else's reality, shows them w/e the user wants. It only fucked up Kakashi because thats what Itachi wanted it to do. Didn't he use it on Sasuke another time just to show him mmurdering the clan? He didn't hurt him with it, he just used it to control time and show him stuff, which is exactly what Tobi/Madara want to do.

How can you possible say "How is Tobi's tsukiyomi different from Itachi's?" while asserting that Sasuke's genjutsu isn't tsukiyomi because he used it slightly differently? Do you not see the massive gigantic flaw in logic? When Sasuke used it before fighting Bee he broke the guys mind enough so that he'd tell them what he wanted to know. When he was fighting Bee he (tried) to use it to inflict massive pain in a short amount of time to knock him out, just like how Itachi used tsukiyomi against everyone else.

Or you did. The debate was about people's 3 eye techniques. Whether or not Sasuke has tsukiyomi is exactly what the debate was about, so it matters very much (in this context) whether or not he is using tsukiyomi, or just happens to be using genjutsu while he has MS up.

It really doesn't matter if it's actually tsukiyomi or not. I personally think it is, but I no longer want to say that it's 100% definitely tsukiyomi. Though I will, and have, provide counterpoints against the arguments that say it's not tsukiyomi only because the logic is flawed. What matters is that he is casting a genjutsu that can only be cast by using his right mangekyou. Stop writing it off as a regular genutsu that he's just casting with his mangekyou active. That's like saying that Kakashi's Kamui is just a regular space/time jutsu he uses with his Mangekyou active that anybody without a sharingan could use.

Did you even bother to read the pages that were mentioned, and that I linked? Sasuke activates his right mangekyou to cast the genjutsu and then it deactivates when he's finished. It even comes complete with eye pain. Are you seriously trying to ignore this and just say he "just happens to be using genjutsu while he activates his MS for the duration of the genjutsu"?

edit: oh god we've gone too far, that's so much text. Do we both agree that his right mangekyou gives him a genjutsu ability that is not usable otherwise? That's all I really care about. If it happens to be tsukiyomi then it is, if it isn't then it's some other mangekyou exclusive ability.

**Uzor** · 2012-08-15 08:31

I don't see why it's imoissible that Sasuke has Tsukiyomi just because it didn't look the same as Itachi's red/inverted grey scale. They control it themselves, Sasuke don't have to use it the same way. Hell, maybe every eye has its own version of Tsuki, like every eye has its own ability.

**Salodin** · 2012-08-15 08:33

I still haven't seen the panel, but didn't some one already post sasuke doing the genjutsu with his normal sharingan?

I'm not saying he doesn't have a ms genjutsu, but if he does it hasn't been made obvious, and it isn't obvious that its tsukiyomi.

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