Besieged Adjustments 2/20/07

[Jeryhn]

The only offensive usage of Tu'Lia is when Eald'narche realizes that he can never reach Paradise and instead just tries to kill everybody. Unless they retconned something, Eald'narche and the other Zilart distinctly speak as though Tu'Lia's going to bridge the way into what they believe is "Paradise".

I realize that Vana'diel itself is a corrupted form of Paradise, but I don't believe that (at least) Eald'narche knew that.

It's not a weapon in the sense that it was constructed to be one. Its a weapon in the sense that it's going to kill anything that's not Zilart. Its no more than a racial purifying machine.

Also, Eald'narche came into direct contact with the crystal, hence his... stature. I find it highly unlikely that he didn't have the knowledge of the crystal's origins, why it was broken, and what was needed to curb the "Kuluu threat".

[Septimus]

My personal understanding of the storyline is that the meltdown caused the Vahzl mother crystal to shift from under the crag of Fei'Yin to where it is now, near Castle Zvahl. (That is what glows in the canyons near the castle.) When Ulrich killed Cornelia and Raogrimm, I think he pushed their bodies into one of the canyons and the latent emptiness from the mother crystal turned Raogrimm into the Shadow Lord. Thus awakening the Zilart Prices and the Keeper of the Apocalypse, thus the attempt to reactivate the Tu'Lia, thus shifting Al'Taieu back into our dimension, thus awakening the emptiness to attack the crystals and the far east, thus awakening Bahamut.

That's my take on it at least.

[Murataki]

My personal understanding of the storyline is that the meltdown caused the Vahzl mother crystal to shift from under the crag of Fei'Yin to where it is now, near Castle Zvahl. (That is what glows in the canyons near the castle.) When Ulrich killed Cornelia and Raogrimm, I think he pushed their bodies into one of the canyons and the latent emptiness from the mother crystal turned Raogrimm into the Shadow Lord. Thus awakening the Zilart Prices and the Keeper of the Apocalypse, thus the attempt to reactivate the Tu'Lia, thus shifting Al'Taieu back into our dimension, thus awakening the emptiness to attack the crystals and the far east, thus awakening Bahamut.

That's my take on it at least.

Pretty much. The Zilart Princes were awakened when the surge of energy from Raogrimm's rage pulled energy through the Crystal Line. At the end of RoZ, when Eald'narche tries to spin the Crystals out of control, that excess power surge is what drags Al'Taieu back into our dimension and sets everything in motion. Hence why the opening cutscene of CoP is of the Zilart trying to contain the overloading reactor in Delkfutt's Tower basement when Selh'teus pops out.

I suppose that the old adage of "If it isn't one thing, it's six" proves true.

[Sagacious Sundi]

Question: I can't remember, but is there any part of Drgaroga's Spine that clearly connects to Fei'Yin? If not, then that scratches it off as a crag (unless some of the spine was destoryed (but that would disrupt the whole crystal line) or is underground).

To note is that the fourth mothercrystal is said to be underground, unlike the first 3, so if it could a special crag like Fei'Yin it wouldn't be surprising.

[Murataki]

Question: I can't remember, but is there any part of Drgaroga's Spine that clearly connects to Fei'Yin? If not, then that scratches it off as a crag (unless some of the spine was destoryed (but that would disrupt the whole crystal line) or is underground).

To note is that the fourth mothercrystal is said to be underground, unlike the first 3, so if it could a special crag like Fei'Yin it wouldn't be surprising.

If the Fourth Mothercrystal is under Fei'Yin, than it stands to reason that the Crystal Line power conduits would probably be underground as well.

[Sagacious Sundi]

Question: I can't remember, but is there any part of Drgaroga's Spine that clearly connects to Fei'Yin? If not, then that scratches it off as a crag (unless some of the spine was destoryed (but that would disrupt the whole crystal line) or is underground).

To note is that the fourth mothercrystal is said to be underground, unlike the first 3, so if it could a special crag like Fei'Yin it wouldn't be surprising.

If the Fourth Mothercrystal is under Fei'Yin, than it stands to reason that the Crystal Line power conduits would probably be underground as well.

But the fourth crystal is near Zvahl and so are Crystal Line thingies.

...Whoa, all of this because I suggested rat people, squidmen, and Fomors being in the Undead Swarm. One step goes a long way~

[Jeryhn]

However, I still don't think Fei'Yin is a mothercrystal. I would think it would have been called Fei'Yin rather than "northernmost ark" in ZM4, and here is ZM4's dialogue...

I don't think you're understanding. Fei'Yin is the ark itself, and the Zilart constructed arks near each piece of the mothercrystal. Like I said before, they were likely batteries used to drain energy from each crystal, which would be ready to transfer the energy

The attack on Fei'Yin explains why there would be an energy backlash. The Kuluu didn't attack the crystal itself, just where the energy was being stored.

While the Meltdown was happening, Selh'teus was attacking Al'Taieu along with Bahamut and Phoenix in tow. Selh'teus figured out that even if the Zilart were successful in using Tu'Lia, the Emptiness would still need to be reborn somewhere else, and the likely place it would happen would be the Chamber of Eventide where it was already concentrated from being used to convert Kuluu into Zilart.

My personal understanding of the storyline is that the meltdown caused the Vahzl mother crystal to shift from under the crag of Fei'Yin to where it is now, near Castle Zvahl. (That is what glows in the canyons near the castle.) When Ulrich killed Cornelia and Raogrimm, I think he pushed their bodies into one of the canyons and the latent emptiness from the mother crystal turned Raogrimm into the Shadow Lord. Thus awakening the Zilart Prices and the Keeper of the Apocalypse, thus the attempt to reactivate the Tu'Lia, thus shifting Al'Taieu back into our dimension, thus awakening the emptiness to attack the crystals and the far east, thus awakening Bahamut.

That's my take on it at least.

Hmm, that's a pretty good idea. Its hard to believe that the force of the Meltdown wouldn't cause the crystal to shift location towards the west, assuming it wasn't there to begin with.

However, how the Shadow Lord came to be is unknown. We know Magicite has something to do with it, at least, and that's just crystallized Emptiness. With Raogrimm being the Talekeeper, he's also forced to feel to collective rage of his race, the "sin" of the Galka is almost entirely on his shoulders, and he quite obviously feels every ounce of it. The "sin" of each race is the manifestation of their Emptiness.

The Shadow Lord's awakening also doesn't seem to be why the Zilart reappeared. Kam'lanaut was around Jeuno well before that time, and helped Jeuno grow, according to the Vana'diel Tribune article on him. In fact, the Shadow Lord's awakening was probably why the Zilart couldn't activate the Crystal Line to use Tu'Lia.

However, the reactivation of the Crystal Line by Eald'narche is almost certainly the reason why Bahamut reappeared from beneath the Sea of Shu'meyu and why Selh'teus was able to travel from Vana'diel from Al'Taieu despite its dimensional stasis.

EDIT: Also, another interesting note. While the Kuluu made pacts with the Terrestial Avatars, there's strong evidence that Raogrimm as the Shadow Lord made a pact with Odin and his legions of demons. I'll try to find the KI link that explains it all, really interesting stuff.

Found it: http://www.killingifrit.com/forums.php? ... 145985&d=0
You may have to do a lot of reading to find the connections.

[Sagacious Sundi]

However, I still don't think Fei'Yin is a mothercrystal. I would think it would have been called Fei'Yin rather than "northernmost ark" in ZM4, and here is ZM4's dialogue...

I don't think you're understanding. Fei'Yin is the ark itself, and the Zilart constructed arks near each piece of the mothercrystal. Like I said before, they were likely batteries used to drain energy from each crystal, which would be ready to transfer the energy

Hmmm, I guess that makes sense. But Fei'Yin looks kinda different. Maybe it was also used as a city or something like Al'Taieu.

Also, didn't Raogrimm make a pact with the Dark Divinity, which is probably Odin's Protocrystal?

[Septimus]

My personal understanding of the storyline is that the meltdown caused the Vahzl mother crystal to shift from under the crag of Fei'Yin to where it is now, near Castle Zvahl. (That is what glows in the canyons near the castle.) When Ulrich killed Cornelia and Raogrimm, I think he pushed their bodies into one of the canyons and the latent emptiness from the mother crystal turned Raogrimm into the Shadow Lord. Thus awakening the Zilart Prices and the Keeper of the Apocalypse, thus the attempt to reactivate the Tu'Lia, thus shifting Al'Taieu back into our dimension, thus awakening the emptiness to attack the crystals and the far east, thus awakening Bahamut.

That's my take on it at least.

Hmm, that's a pretty good idea. Its hard to believe that the force of the Meltdown wouldn't cause the crystal to shift location towards the west, assuming it wasn't there to begin with.

However, how the Shadow Lord came to be is unknown. We know Magicite has something to do with it, at least, and that's just crystallized Emptiness. With Raogrimm being the Talekeeper, he's also forced to feel to collective rage of his race, the "sin" of the Galka is almost entirely on his shoulders, and he quite obviously feels every ounce of it. The "sin" of each race is the manifestation of their Emptiness.

The Shadow Lord's awakening also doesn't seem to be why the Zilart reappeared. Kam'lanaut was around Jeuno well before that time, and helped Jeuno grow, according to the Vana'diel Tribune article on him. In fact, the Shadow Lord's awakening was probably why the Zilart couldn't activate the Crystal Line to use Tu'Lia.

However, the reactivation of the Crystal Line by Eald'narche is almost certainly the reason why Bahamut reappeared from beneath the Sea of Shu'meyu and why Selh'teus was able to travel from Vana'diel from Al'Taieu despite its dimensional stasis.

EDIT: Also, another interesting note. While the Kuluu made pacts with the Terrestial Avatars, there's strong evidence that Raogrimm as the Shadow Lord made a pact with Odin and his legions of demons. I'll try to find the KI link that explains it all, really interesting stuff.

Found it: http://www.killingifrit.com/forums.php? ... 145985&d=0
You may have to do a lot of reading to find the connections.

When Raogrimm made contact with the mother crystal 30 years ago, the princes woke up in the tower. It took the Shadow Lord 10 years to build up an army, plenty of time for the princes to build up their power and establish Jeuno as a power during the crystal war.

[Murataki]

I distinctly remember a black Protocrystal up in Bearclaw Pinnacle. Wasn't that supposedly the source of the Shadow Lord entity?

[Jeryhn]

Hmmm, I guess that makes sense. But Fei'Yin looks kinda different. Maybe it was also used as a city or something like Al'Taieu.

Entirely possible. The cutscenes which show the crags lighting up during the activation of the Crystal Line in the Sacrifical Chamber cutscene show numerous Zilart surrounding the crag. I would suspect there would need to be Zilart located at each crag to perform specific duties, and they would need a place to live, etc.

Also, didn't Raogrimm make a pact with the Dark Divinity, which is probably Odin's Protocrystal?

Presumably. We know the "Dark Divinity" isn't Promathia (Prishe says this much in the cutscenes in Bearclaw Pinnacle), and we know the Memoria de la S^tona was used to shatter a crystal in the Bearclaw Pinnacle. The Shadow Lord probably made a pact with Odin... Odin would lend the Shadow Lord control over the Kindred, which in turn could be used to influence the other, weaker Beastmen races. In exchange, the Shadow Lord would find someone that could be used to free Odin from his photocrystal, namely Emeline, who could sing the song that could "awaken the gods".

Not to mention whenever the Dark Rider appears in Aht Urghan, he usually has a number of demon escorts.

When Raogrimm made contact with the mother crystal 30 years ago, the princes woke up in the tower. It took the Shadow Lord 10 years to build up an army, plenty of time for the princes to build up their power and establish Jeuno as a power during the crystal war.

See above. The Shadow Lord was probably literally given an army by Odin to conquer the world with. And I was pretty sure the VT article said Kam'lanaut was around for at least 50 years before the Crystal War building Jeuno, and that it mentioned it was remarkable that neither he or his brother seemed to age.

[Kattice]

It was before. Shadowlord stopped them cause of the noise, but they were already awakened, the article does state that they never aged and led the war effort.

Maat also mentions this vaguely on g5.

[Sagacious Sundi]

I distinctly remember a black Protocrystal up in Bearclaw Pinnacle. Wasn't that supposedly the source of the Shadow Lord entity?

Memory's foggy, but I think so. What's weird is that there is no gloomy weather, let alone darkness weather, in Uleguerand, but maybe that's the result of the Dark Divinity/Protocrystal breaking?

[Jeryhn]

I distinctly remember a black Protocrystal up in Bearclaw Pinnacle. Wasn't that supposedly the source of the Shadow Lord entity?

Memory's foggy, but I think so. What's weird is that there is no gloomy weather, let alone darkness weather, in Uleguerand, but maybe that's the result of the Dark Divinity/Protocrystal breaking?

Most likely.

[Sagacious Sundi]

Presumably. We know the "Dark Divinity" isn't Promathia (Prishe says this much in the cutscenes in Bearclaw Pinnacle), and we know the Memoria de la S^tona was used to shatter a crystal in the Bearclaw Pinnacle. The Shadow Lord probably made a pact with Odin... Odin would lend the Shadow Lord control over the Kindred, which in turn could be used to influence the other, weaker Beastmen races. In exchange, the Shadow Lord would find someone that could be used to free Odin from his photocrystal, namely Emeline, who could sing the song that could "awaken the gods".

Not to mention whenever the Dark Rider appears in Aht Urghan, he usually has a numer of demon escorts.

Hmm, so would this be Odin's plan:
1. Transform Rao into the Shadow Lord and unleash the demons.
2. Use the demons to form a beastmen army.
3. Use the army to kidnap Emeline (and harm people for the SL's liking).
4. Use Emeline to awaken Odin.
5. Do something to Alex/Aht Urhgan (presumably destroy).

He could have also had intentions to use the beastmen army in the Middle Lands to aid in his quest to destory the Empire, but the army was eventually destroyed and scattered.

[Jeryhn]

Hmm, so would this be Odin's plan:
1. Transform Rao into the Shadow Lord and unleash the demons.
2. Use the demons to form a beastmen army.
3. Use the army to kidnap Emeline (and harm people for the SL's liking).
4. Use Emeline to awaken Odin.
5. Do something to Alex/Aht Urhgan (presumably destroy).

He could have also had intentions to use the beastmen army in the Middle Lands to aid in his quest to destory the Empire, but the army was evetnually destroyed and scattered.

Could be. It'll probably have something to do with the corsair ghosts that Luzaf is leading. Either Odin wants them back in the land of the dead, and unleashed Cerberus to track them down, or he's helping them to achieve their goal... to raze Aht Urghan. I wouldn't find it far off the mark that the corsairs have summoned a projection of Odin that they use to keep the citizens of Aht Urghan in perpetual fear.

Cerberus was freed to bring the corsairs back down to the land of the dead, but the Trolls seem to have a method of subduing the creature, which explains the alliance between the corsairs and the trolls. Whoever its actual master is, we do not know.

[Septimus]

When Raogrimm made contact with the mother crystal 30 years ago, the princes woke up in the tower. It took the Shadow Lord 10 years to build up an army, plenty of time for the princes to build up their power and establish Jeuno as a power during the crystal war.

See above. The Shadow Lord was probably literally given an army by Odin to conquer the world with. And I was pretty sure the VT article said Kam'lanaut was around for at least 50 years before the Crystal War building Jeuno, and that it mentioned it was remarkable that neither he or his brother seemed to age.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Kam%27lanaut

In the year 855, Kam'lanaut and his brother were picked up by a fishing boat and taken to Jeuno. There are no solid facts regarding their lives before they arrived in Jeuno; however, Kam'lanaut claims that he was the pupil of a sage deep in the mountains, where he and his brother Eald'narche studied the knowledge of the ancients until the sage's death. According to his story, they then gained passage on a merchant's vessel to Windurst, the capital of learning. However, they met with rough weather, and the ship capsized, leaving them adrift.

This was a story spread by the princes. According to the dates, he should be around 50 years old at the start of the game.

[Kattice]

What about the moblins owning the trolls through money? The Troll besieged pretty much clears up any doubt about the moblins playing a part in this. Moblins aren't nomadic and apparently are pretty rich, but what are they up to?

[Sagacious Sundi]

What about the moblins owning the trolls through money? The Troll besieged pretty much clears up any doubt about the moblins playing a part in this. Moblins aren't nomadic and apparently are pretty rich, but what are they up to?

Megomak, whom is supposedly their leader, seems obsessed with chimera. However, remember that Moblins (at least Movalpolos ones) are searching for an iron giant, and keep in mind this expansion's whole Alexander connection(s).

[Jeryhn]

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Kam%27lanaut

In the year 855, Kam'lanaut and his brother were picked up by a fishing boat and taken to Jeuno. There are no solid facts regarding their lives before they arrived in Jeuno; however, Kam'lanaut claims that he was the pupil of a sage deep in the mountains, where he and his brother Eald'narche studied the knowledge of the ancients until the sage's death. According to his story, they then gained passage on a merchant's vessel to Windurst, the capital of learning. However, they met with rough weather, and the ship capsized, leaving them adrift.

This was a story spread by the princes. According to the dates, he should be around 50 years old at the start of the game.

Ah, it appears you're correct. Kam'lanaut came to Jeuno in 855, was elected to Archduke in 859, and the Shadow Lord began attacking in 862. That would coincide with Raogrimm's excursion in the Northlands.

What about the moblins owning the trolls through money? The Troll besieged pretty much clears up any doubt about the moblins playing a part in this. Moblins aren't nomadic and apparently are pretty rich, but what are they up to?

Goblins tend to deal with anyone willing to trade/barter/etc. I doubt the Moblins as a whole support any one side.