Slow II

[Demitrius]

When we do Proto-Ultima I go on RDM/DRK and try to land Abs-MND each time before casting Slow II and Paralyze II. Really beautiful things happen when you do...

You're gaining at least 6 MND subbing WHM instead, and that doesn't fade like absorbs do. If you really want a MND boost, get the bard to give it to you.

He's probably going to Proto-Ultima as /DRK to stunwhore, not just for Absorb-MND. Abs-MND is just a bonus of going as stunwhore.

Not only that, but Slow's reduction is a direct comparison of the caster's MND against the target's MND. Raising your own MND (via /WHM sub) will obviously help this, but Abs-MND benefits both sides of the equation: raise your MND and lower your enemy's.

Holy crap, how did I never realize that in all the times I've sucked MND out of mobs. That could be a 30 MND swing.

[Khamsin]

When we do Proto-Ultima I go on RDM/DRK and try to land Abs-MND each time before casting Slow II and Paralyze II. Really beautiful things happen when you do...

You're gaining at least 6 MND subbing WHM instead, and that doesn't fade like absorbs do. If you really want a MND boost, get the bard to give it to you.

But if you Absorb-MND for 6, the difference then becomes 12 since Ultima loses MND at the same time. However, I believe the amount of MND absorbed/drained is larger.

You could then also get the BRD to etude you, on top of that and end up higher than /WHM.

[Charitwo]

When we do Proto-Ultima I go on RDM/DRK and try to land Abs-MND each time before casting Slow II and Paralyze II. Really beautiful things happen when you do...

You're gaining at least 6 MND subbing WHM instead, and that doesn't fade like absorbs do. If you really want a MND boost, get the bard to give it to you.

He's probably going to Proto-Ultima as /DRK to stunwhore, not just for Absorb-MND. Abs-MND is just a bonus of going as stunwhore.

Not only that, but Slow's reduction is a direct comparison of the caster's MND against the target's MND. Raising your own MND (via /WHM sub) will obviously help this, but Abs-MND benefits both sides of the equation: raise your MND and lower your enemy's.

Holy crap, how did I never realize that in all the times I've sucked MND out of mobs. That could be a 30 MND swing.

Without merits and all but 5 skill in Dark magic gear, Abs-MND, let alone the others, are really hard to land on Ultima.

[Not Kuno]

Eh? Sept lands Abs-Mnd on Proto-Ultima fairly often.

[Terrance]

Eh? Sept lands Abs-Mnd on Proto-Ultima fairly often.

Aspir lands pretty reliably in Dynamis-Xarc, but my absorbs don't. Aspir doesn't land as reliably on Ultima, so I'd be surprised if absorbs are reliable for a RDM. RDM absorbs aren't that hot either. It's been a while, but I think 8 points is about what I absorb off normal mobs, no idea what kind of numbers you'd pull on Ultima, but either way you're better off having 30% slow on it than screwing around with absorb-mnd for a while with it having no slow on it so you can get 32% slow on it later. Particularly if you're there to stun.

Which brings up another point, although everyone assumes the rate of slow doesn't change if target's MND changes, I haven't seen tests.

[Tonko]

Absorb spells by a RDM on Ultima are not at all hard to land.

Hell, have your BRD toss a Dark Threnody on it real quick if they're having that much trouble.

[Parshias]

To answer the question from earlier in the topic: Earth Shot definately enhances Slow II. Had a Jormy fight where the COR landed Earth Shot while my Slow II was up and Jorm was swinging about once a week, it was fantastic.

[Sylvrdragon]

To answer the question from earlier in the topic: Earth Shot definately enhances Slow II. Had a Jormy fight where the COR landed Earth Shot while my Slow II was up and Jorm was swinging about once a week, it was fantastic.

You sure the BRD just didn't land an Elegy? Some people from LS went on a Yovra spree the other day. I was landing SlowIIs while the BRD was landing Elegy. We had a COR that would Earth Shot every time for me. The NIN said it was the eaiest tanking he'd done in a while, going Ni > Ni with time to spare, but thats purely anecdotal. You really need a controlled environment to give any definitive answers.

Ballista + Reraise /recast is the best way to find out for sure (Reraise is an even one minute recast. Much easier to get solid percentages than using Uts.). I'll drag some LS members to Ballista sometime if I remember.

Here's a question that someone may know. Would a 15% haste cancel out a 15% slow? Meaning, are they both calculated by the base or would it calculate from the latest total? Kinda like, if a DRK used the JSE with the Damage+, would the same amount of Damage- cancel it out?

[Suiram]

Provided the underlying values expressed as a fraction of 256 match up, then the damage- and damage+ gear should cancel one another out. Slow and haste occupy the same status slot and don't stack, for PCs at least and pretty sure for mobs, too. Don't know about how Elegy + Haste would stack, though.

Also, Ballista is notoriously bad at testing everything except how stuff works in Ballista, so I wouldn't rely on that. Although I don't know how you'd go about testing earth shot effect on slow otherwise. Could a sophisticated parser time the interval between enemy attack rounds?

[Kirschy]

I guess this is a dumb question... but on DRK main I absorb 18 per abs spell. I thought it was hit or miss with partial resists only affecting the duration of the stat-down effect on the mob. /DRK absorbs are only gaining about 6-8 from the stat-up?(and how long does it lasts?)

[Terrance]

Here's a question that someone may know. Would a 15% haste cancel out a 15% slow? Meaning, are they both calculated by the base or would it calculate from the latest total? Kinda like, if a DRK used the JSE with the Damage+, would the same amount of Damage- cancel it out?

No, haste/slow canceling isn't based on %, it's based on which spell was used. 10% refueling will overwrite any of the standard slows that 15% haste will as far as I've seen, and most slows are more than 10 (or 15) percent.

Which makes the developer's (or was it Sundi's?) comment on higher tiers of Slow II overcoming a mob's haste really strange.

[Silmarwen]

To answer the question from earlier in the topic: Earth Shot definately enhances Slow II. Had a Jormy fight where the COR landed Earth Shot while my Slow II was up and Jorm was swinging about once a week, it was fantastic.

I went to Khim as my COR, and I was thinking how badly I sucked Granted I'm still not 75. However, one of the RDMs claimed their Slow II lasted something like 8 minutes, where usually it's much less. I guess in my lil mind somewhere I was thinking Earth shot enhanced the % of slow, not the duration. Curious to know which one, or both, would be hawt :D

[Delekii]

If earth shot affects slow2 at all, it is only effect; quick draw does not affect duration on any other spell (would be hot if it did, dark shot on a sleep2 would be great in certain circumstances).

To be honest, I am not/would not be suprised at all if it didnt work on slow 2, I think SE realised how powerful stacked slow is when they released earth shot. Initially it worked on Elegy, and carnage elegy + slow1 with earthshot was totally ridiculous.

As for Ballista not being a good testing ground, I think it is perfectly fine. There are a few specific and obvious changes in ballista (most notably damage formulas because we dont have nearly the same HP as mobs, and range related stuff to account for multiple clients lagging while interacting with each other), but there is no reason to change something like slow potency calculation. Before resistance builds up, sleep2 and sleep last identical duration in Ballista to on mobs, and carnage elegy has the same effect (or atleast close enough to the same as far as the human eye is concerned). Songs also last the same duration.. etc. I think its relatively obvious where things in ballista dont work the same and where they do, and mostly the changes are for logically explainable reasons.

[Parshias]

To answer the question from earlier in the topic: Earth Shot definately enhances Slow II. Had a Jormy fight where the COR landed Earth Shot while my Slow II was up and Jorm was swinging about once a week, it was fantastic.

You sure the BRD just didn't land an Elegy? Some people from LS went on a Yovra spree the other day. I was landing SlowIIs while the BRD was landing Elegy. We had a COR that would Earth Shot every time for me. The NIN said it was the eaiest tanking he'd done in a while, going Ni > Ni with time to spare, but thats purely anecdotal. You really need a controlled environment to give any definitive answers.

Ballista + Reraise /recast is the best way to find out for sure (Reraise is an even one minute recast. Much easier to get solid percentages than using Uts.). I'll drag some LS members to Ballista sometime if I remember.

Here's a question that someone may know. Would a 15% haste cancel out a 15% slow? Meaning, are they both calculated by the base or would it calculate from the latest total? Kinda like, if a DRK used the JSE with the Damage+, would the same amount of Damage- cancel it out?

Either Earth Shot works with Slow II, or our BRD only landed Elegy that one time the entire fight. I'm pretty sure the BRD was keeping Elegy on fairly consistently, and this difference in Slow was too large and only happened that one time for it to just be Slow + Elegy. Jorm's attack speed was so slow I actually thought that one of our BLMs had slept Jorm, rather than him just waiting for his next attack round. Our COR was even bragging about his Earth Shot right when the uber-delay happened.

Yeah, I know its just anecdotal evidence, but the delay difference was too extreme to me for it to just be Elegy. Jorm was attacking something like every 5-6 seconds, our PLD/NINs could have tanked it in their sleep.

[Celebrindor]

I guess this is a dumb question... but on DRK main I absorb 18 per abs spell. I thought it was hit or miss with partial resists only affecting the duration of the stat-down effect on the mob. /DRK absorbs are only gaining about 6-8 from the stat-up?(and how long does it lasts?)

I frequently solo RDM/DRK simply because ABS-VIT is friggin awesome in the EP-T range for RDM tanking solo. Not to mention any ability to boost my damage is quality, as it pretty much is like poking an alligator with a toothpick, and I use Bio II for DoT and -str%.

That being said, I've seen a consistent +13 VIT boost the instant I cast ABS-VIT. However, and this is very interesting to me.....it isn't a cosntant +13VIT from the moment it lands to the moment it wears, it kind of bleeds off. Checking it 30secs-1 minute later and I'll have +9VIT, another 30secs later, +4.

In my experience, DRK absorb spells seem to have a yes/no component to their landing, and if they do they absorb a flat rate based on if its a DRK or /DRK casting, and any "enhances absorb spells" gear a DRK might be wearing. Then, after landing they can get a "partial resist" the way a RDM's silence might not land for a full duration in that they "bleed off" faster than a fully unresisted absorb spell. I base this on personal experience only, no data so take it for what its worth. But I've probably logged close to 100 hours plus in the last 3 months of nothing but /drk soloing in the DC-T range (million eyes, DC buffalo in the range, steelshells in the tree, etc) and it seems to be pretty much the way I experience it.

Quite a detour from Slow II, but since we're talking about ways to boost it, figured it applied. If you CAN land an ABS-MND on Proto-Ultima, cast that slow II early and get the most bang for your buck.

[Kyreth]

That being said, I've seen a consistent +13 VIT boost the instant I cast ABS-VIT. However, and this is very interesting to me.....it isn't a cosntant +13VIT from the moment it lands to the moment it wears, it kind of bleeds off. Checking it 30secs-1 minute later and I'll have +9VIT, another 30secs later, +4.

Aren't elemental debuffs much the same? Large initial stat swing, then it drops over time until the DoT expires?

[Suiram]

Aren't elemental debuffs much the same? Large initial stat swing, then it drops over time until the DoT expires?

No, much the opposite. Constant DoT effect and stat reduction for the duration of the spell.

[Isiolia]

Aren't elemental debuffs much the same? Large initial stat swing, then it drops over time until the DoT expires?

No, much the opposite. Constant DoT effect and stat reduction for the duration of the spell.

That's not what I recall observing when worms in Shakrami hit me with Rasp years ago...maybe they changed it, but I remember the stat down fading over time.

[Not Kuno]

Aren't elemental debuffs much the same? Large initial stat swing, then it drops over time until the DoT expires?

No, much the opposite. Constant DoT effect and stat reduction for the duration of the spell.

That's not what I recall observing when worms in Shakrami hit me with Rasp years ago...maybe they changed it, but I remember the stat down fading over time.

Maybe you got hit with its Dex down aoe WS?

[Isiolia]

Certainly possible, but I'll just watch next time I get hit with elemental enfeebles to see. That's just where I clearly remember watching a stat negation fade, but as you point out they have multiple ways of reducing DEX.