Heated Endgame Discussion

[divisortheory]

If salvage was meant to help fix the bottleneck of kings/sky it hasent happened and won't happen.

Just saved this one to my biological hard drive so I can use it against you in a few months.

I think the problem is that they'll never be fully cleared out because of how they work though. You are just never going to see Fafnir / Nidhogg sitting up unclaimed, because even if everyone rushes to Salvage, there will always be a linkshell that goes for the easy drop.

That's fine though, I think that's perfectly acceptable. But currently for the hardcore aery people there's no competition about which activity to take part in. For Salvage to be successful (for hardcore aery people), it need only provide an alternative that is at least as appealing as Aery. It doesn't need to replace it. And if it does replace it, that will serve only to create another bottleneck that people will complain about down the line.

[Lordender]

The point i'm making is that people for the most part aren't excited about salvage, I remember when dynamis came out everyone went ape shit about going everytime they could go, same with limbus over a year after being out without people losing intrest.

[Quicklet]

IF MORE THAN "maybe 4" LINKSHELLS PER SERVER DID SALVAGE REGULARLY THERE MIGHT BE MORE PROGRESS IN REGARDS TO WHERE SOME OF THE UNKNOWN ITEMS DROP INSTEAD OF SITTING BACK FOR THREE MONTHS AND LETTING OTHERS DO THE WORK

I think Sea and CoP Dynamis took away a lot of the motivation for people to explore things fully.

I don't think this is really that far away from the way original Dynamis was when it first came out though. There really wasn't a whole lot of information available, which imo was nice just because it actually was more fun working through the content then just following pre-existing strategy #32.

Oh ya, and nerf sac pulling lol.

For the record, I find going with around 12 is MUCH better than going with 18.

12 people at 70-90% is much more efficient than 18 people at 30-70%.

Yeah, well I mean I feel like that's a design flaw if going with less people is easier / not much harder (that's probably one of the few flaws I feel that Limbus had). I'm not arguing that that isn't the case, because I can see why going with less people is a lot easier, at least at this point.

The point i'm making is that people for the most part aren't excited about salvage, I remember when dynamis came out everyone went ape shit about going everytime they could go, same with limbus.

Most NAs weren't even leveled enough to do Dynamis when it came out, but uh there quite a few people who complained about how Dynamis wasn't worth it, AF drop rates were ghey, AF2 was useless, that it was a waste of 1 million gil, etc., even after getting to Dynamis-Xarcabard. Some people just don't want to struggle through new content until it can be spoonfed to them.

[Xavier]

For Salvage to be successful (for hardcore aery people), it need only provide an alternative that is at least as appealing as Aery. It doesn't need to replace it. And if it does replace it, that will serve only to create another bottleneck that people will complain about down the line.

I think people would probably complain, and it would probably lead to bottlenecking, if the only way to enter Salvage was to be the first person to click a ??? that only spawns once every 21-24hrs.

[Kyreth]

That's the problem with doing it even once. Do it once, and you guarantee people will foam at the mouth to do it again.

God forbid you make your playerbase happy.

Yep. I don't like feeding the playerbase poison even if it tastes good going down.

And if it happens twice, you've just begun the process of severing your newer players from your older ones.

You've done nothing to explain how this would happen. Any argument you've made has been the extreme case, which nobody is arguing for. People aren't asking for gear thats 5 times better than current gear, just that when near gear is released its not -worse- than current gear.

That's right. This iteration of "improved gear" wouldn't be. What about the next? Or the one after that? How about three expansions down the line? The point is, once progression begins, it doesn't stop. In the process, it wipes larger and larger chunks of the game out of the way and creates roadblocks for new players to join in- and server populations slid downwards. Why begin that process when I know the inevitable result? I've seen it happen.

That being said, I agree- the Hydra/Cerebus armor is crapola. But overall, ToAU has had stuff players want. It's just rarely found on the HNM's. And if you're NOT going after the HNM-slaying lifestyle, what you can get is pretty damn good.

Every expansion has had things people want, things that will improve their character. What S-E hasn't done is put gear in that breaks the "best" current gear as useful items. And that's the line that IMHO shouldn't be broken.

If you imply that people are asking to break the old gear one more time I'm just going to put you on ignore. That isn't whats being said. Even divisory admitted its stupid to keep releasing new, harder HNMs that have worse and worse gear in comparison to the old ones. I don't care if you never have full progression so long as its not degression.

You say they're harder. I say they're actually easier. FFXI's playerbase offed each and every HNM in ToAU they found in a matter of 48 hours, if not the day they were first encountered (save Dark Rider, of course). How long did it take to down the Cop Wyrms by comparision? The first Kirin?

For all that they're tougher than earlier NM's, overall they're easier to defeat relative to the people who had to kill oldschool HNM's the first time. And I think that's where S-E tried to balance the loot. It'd have been preferable if they'd made the drops equal on relative fight toughness instead.

Equal drops to gods? The fight would have to scale to be of a toughness relative to post-merit play. We + merit + gear is adding up to more and more over time.

[Xavier]

The only reason the NMs can be killed without much trial and error is because they've been adding the exact same NMs to the game with different names for 3 years. Every single wyrm is nearly identical, different element and all that goes with it, and thats about it.

The reason things took longer when the game came out is because people were just reaching 75, and there -was- no strategy for killing NMs. Now the same strategy can basically kill anything in the game.

Don't confuse easy with predictable.

[fantasticdan]

IF MORE THAN "maybe 4" LINKSHELLS PER SERVER DID SALVAGE REGULARLY THERE MIGHT BE MORE PROGRESS IN REGARDS TO WHERE SOME OF THE UNKNOWN ITEMS DROP INSTEAD OF SITTING BACK FOR THREE MONTHS AND LETTING OTHERS DO THE WORK

Do you really think an ingame event/zone should require the team work and exchanging of information between hundreds of players across different servers on unofficial forums, just to figure shit out and try to get anything done?

I'll admit I had fun in salvage the first few times I entered it, but it is really the most poorly designed thing I've seen in FFXI, and that's saying alot. I would venture to guess salvage was designed and programmed by 2-3 people AT MOST, it doesn't even seem like they had enough people on staff to TEST THE ZONES.

And even after things are figured out, I think 3-4 pieces per 8 runs is a serious overestimation. That is unless your entire LS or salvage static is dedicated to getting certain people specific pieces of gear, and even than, you would have to have extremely good luck in terms of getting cells and actually getting the nms to drop the equips you need.

[Khamsin]

First off, you can do Salvage and still camp Fafnir and Tiamat. Hell, my LS does Salvage twice a week and we still camp Fafnir, Tiamat, Cerberus, and Khimaira. The only conflict is when one of those pops during Salvage time, and we tend to just go ahead with Salvage if we're already there when it pops. If we haven't gathered yet, then we'll likely just head out to the HNM. The exception is Fafnir, since we know when he's going to pop so we can just do Salvage after.

If you had a full set of Ares, wouldn't you still want a ridill? If you had a full set of Morrigan or Marduk, wouldn't you still want gaiters? Anything in Salvage gonna replace a Hauteclaire or an Algol?

Of course people are going to still be in aery, and camp Timmy/Khimaira/Cerberus. It's stupid to try to use that reasoning to say Salvage is worthless.

All Salvage did to the kings is make Aspido even more lonely.

Secondly, its not SE's fault how many people are motivated to try new content. The gear is there, its accessible if you do it. If you choose not to, that's your fault, not theirs. I could understand if Salvage were impossible, but its not. The bottleneck in Salvage will be the 35 piece drop rate (let alone NM pop rate), but beyond that it will all be fairly routine before long. At that point, just pretend its dynamis-xarcabard where the kindred NMs only have a chance of spawning, since that's what it effectively boils down to once the 15 and 25 pieces become trivial. And lots of people do dynamis.

[BRP]

but it is really the most poorly designed thing I've seen in FFXI

OBJECTION.

Just no. Just... no. I mean even if you exclude everything from the end-game, you are still dead wrong. By A LOT. By A LOT A LOT.

[NynJa]

IF MORE THAN "maybe 4" LINKSHELLS PER SERVER DID SALVAGE REGULARLY THERE MIGHT BE MORE PROGRESS IN REGARDS TO WHERE SOME OF THE UNKNOWN ITEMS DROP INSTEAD OF SITTING BACK FOR THREE MONTHS AND LETTING OTHERS DO THE WORK

Do you really think an ingame event/zone should require the team work and exchanging of information between hundreds of players across different servers on unofficial forums, just to figure shit out and try to get anything done.

FUCKING HYPOCRITE

And if it were so bloody basic that it could be figured out within weeks you would bitch and piss and moan about it being so easy.

[Xavier]

You should never argue with a hypocrite because you can't win.

[fantasticdan]

And if it were so bloody basic that it could be figured out within weeks you would bitch and piss and moan about it being so easy.

Salvage isn't difficult, like some kind of riddle requiring any kind of intelligence, but it requires a rediculous amount of trial and error to figure(guess) things out(and luck), by a large number of dedicated people. Dedicated people that are willing to go and do this shit for monthes losing exp, assault points, and money on meds knowing that they will probably never get a single piece of upgraded gear, or any reward at all from said zone for maybe three monthes to a year even after the zone is figured out, if they ever get anything at all.

Like I said, you can clearly tell it was designed and programmed by just a couple people, in a small amount of time, without being properly tested. It's rediculous that players are PAYING to test broken content.

[Priran]

And if it were so bloody basic that it could be figured out within weeks you would bitch and piss and moan about it being so easy.

People like Limbus.

The only reasons I can think of as to why people would rather never see the inside of a Remnant than obtain a piece of Salvage gear is because the whole fucking premise is Concentrate of CoP. Character restrictions, force-pop NMs without 100% drops, 1-alliance instances, glitchy programming, juggernaut bosses, the ability to fuck yourself over unintentionally. No one wants this, and no one wants to pay what's a steep price to everyone except Kalia to enter.

[Siatdiat]

First off, you can do Salvage and still camp Fafnir and Tiamat. Hell, my LS does Salvage twice a week and we still camp Fafnir, Tiamat, Cerberus, and Khimaira. The only conflict is when one of those pops during Salvage time, and we tend to just go ahead with Salvage if we're already there when it pops. If we haven't gathered yet, then we'll likely just head out to the HNM. The exception is Fafnir, since we know when he's going to pop so we can just do Salvage after.

If you had a full set of Ares, wouldn't you still want a ridill? If you had a full set of Morrigan or Marduk, wouldn't you still want gaiters? Anything in Salvage gonna replace a Hauteclaire or an Algol?

Of course people are going to still be in aery, and camp Timmy/Khimaira/Cerberus. It's stupid to try to use that reasoning to say Salvage is worthless.

All Salvage did to the kings is make Aspido even more lonely.

Secondly, its not SE's fault how many people are motivated to try new content. The gear is there, its accessible if you do it. If you choose not to, that's your fault, not theirs. I could understand if Salvage were impossible, but its not. The bottleneck in Salvage will be the 35 piece drop rate (let alone NM pop rate), but beyond that it will all be fairly routine before long. At that point, just pretend its dynamis-xarcabard where the kindred NMs only have a chance of spawning, since that's what it effectively boils down to once the 15 and 25 pieces become trivial. And lots of people do dynamis.

WALL OF TEXT WARNING, but whatever...

That is one of the stupidest things ive ever read. If they design something that no player wants to do, its their failure. I understand some people are used to doing content just because it exists, but some people wont to enjoy playing the game. If people dont think its worth doing then its SE's failure. Ill eat my words if everyone is spamming salvage in a year, but I really doubt it. The reason there isnt progress isnt because all the ls not doing it are waiting in the wings, ready to steal all the strats either. All I see every time that argument comes up is people patting themselves on the back for putting themselves through poorly designed content, then assuming its not because its poorly designed but because "we just dont know enough about it yet". Have fun when the actual endgame of ToAU gets added and is an additional event for a linkshell, probably still doing sky and dynamis, youll have to start doubling up on events. I really feel sorry for the new members of all the haijin ffxi ls who wont understand til after their first year of endgame that they are there to get table scraps, while leaders and original members pull in all the good loot for multiple jobs because they are "vets". If there is even new members to join.

I dont know if any of you realize this, but SE doesnt actually beta test anything they put into the game. They have people test it in house. They need to put it out there for the players who above all else look for ways to break the game, and when they find it balance it out.

The way ffxi is played is the way the players decide to play it. If SE cant create incentive to participate or do most of the endgame content, or create an incentive for alot of people to even continue playing, its not the players who quit the games fault. Its SE's fault for failing at making a product people can continue to enjoy. If you look beyond the lack of progression type content and say that they could make winning content that intrigues people and makes them want to keep playing, then I guess my question is where is that content? Dont mention the same shit that its already clear most people dont care for. If only 5% or much less of the server that has atleast 1 75 job is interested in doing it, then its a huge fail. Just because you and your hardcore crew who do all content just because it exists like it, doesnt mean that is the status quo.

[Khamsin]

My dynamis LS finally beat Dynamis-Tavnazia on Wednesday night because it exists. People get upset when they can't come to Tavnazia since there's no room, and are forced to go to Xarcabard with the leftovers.

Conversely, my HNMLS does Salvage for the gear.

Of course, some of us do Salvage because it exists, too. A handful of us are always eager to jump into new unexplored content. I'm one of them. Hell, I'm doing Salvage for PUP gear, when I have RDM, WAR, and SMN. However, that won't account for an alliance of participation. Everyone who isn't doing Salvage because they enjoy discovering new things are doing it for the gear that it drops.

It's gear that drops for those who do it, and if you don't want to do it, then don't do it, but don't complain that they added nice new gear that you can't get... because you can, if you'd just do Salvage. If you still refuse to do Salvage, then at the least you could pretend it was never added. There is no Usukane or Morrigan, so just continue about your game life as if nothing had ever happened.

[Ninjiz]

All i have to say is... "Limbus"

Fantasticly implemented content. Majority of people are happy with it. the Only complaint id have with limbus, is some of teh AF+1 kinda stinks, but oh well, its a very small gripe. But the system is FUN and "almost" instantly rewarding. You get coins, AF+1 items WILL drop the only random part is WHICH one will drop. Then you have boss battles at the end. Omega takes 2 weeks to reach (assuming you dont have a the people or the skill to split up and take 2 zones at once, and assuming additional omega chips dont drop.) Ultima takes 3 weeks to reach (again, assuming you dont have the numbers and jobs to split up), then you get 2-3 pieces of armor at the end, then you do it over again. But the thing is,.... most dont care because Limbus is INSTANTLY rewarding throughout the whole thing. EVERYPNE leaves with "something".

I've done about 4 Salvages now, reached the 4th-5th floors, and one have reached the mega boss on one run. And out of all that killing we did, Not one single piece dropped. The only thing that dropped was some sort of Card thing, which i think is supposed to ppop a NM somewhere? I dont have a problem with something "hard". But i just dont llike the way Salvage was implemented with COP style restrictions.

I admit, a lot of it is very unknown at this point, which is why i dont think Salvage is the worse thing ever, but just because i dont despise something, doesnt mean i cant see everyone elses points, and think they are invalid. I will wait to fully make up my mind when more trial and error is done to get through it. But that could be awhile.

My whole point was simply, Limbus is an example of something that was beatable in a few weeks, and STILL people KEEP GOING BACK. Because Limbus is ACTUALLY Fun (a concept foreign to so many).

EDIT: Omega Ultima edited for accuracy, idont know what i was thinking.

[Khamsin]

Omega takes 2 weeks to reach, and Ultima only 3.

However, Salvage gear is (in many cases) better than Homam or Nashira. Think of it like mini-relics that the average player actually has a hope of obtaining.

(The average player that actually does Salvage regularly rather than whines about it, that is.)

[Ninjiz]

yea, Salvage gear is better depending on the job, but since Limbus came out a whoel expansion ago, it doesnt matter. Salvage stuff SHOULD be better. But it doesnt change the fact Limbus was implemented way better, and is also more fun, with a better sense of reward despit the gear beiong old now.

[Ravenlokk]

yea, Salvage gear is better depending on the job, but since Limbus came out a whoel expansion ago, it doesnt matter. Salvage stuff SHOULD be better. But it doesnt change the fact Limbus was implemented way better, and is also more fun, with a better sense of reward despit the gear beiong old now.

Everyone in my shell who wants homam- has the whole set (or they have mixed homam + nashira)- some even have full sets of both. ABCoins are saturated to the point of being almost worthless- all but a handful of AF+1s are laughable, with little/no increased utility.

IMO Salvage is a much better system that involves a challenge- with a bit of a random element to keep things dynamic. I'd rather not be spoonfed easy rewards... If i wanted everything to be as easy as limbus i'd be playing WoW.

Yeah... I went there...

[Kaylia]

Omega takes 2 weeks to reach, and Ultima only 3.

2 weeks if you dont get any chip during omega BC and cant split into 2x5people party >_>Otherwise, you can do it once per week or almost

Everyone in my shell who wants homam- has the whole set (or they have mixed homam + nashira)- some even have full sets of both. ABCoins are saturated to the point of being almost worthless- all but a handful of AF+1s are laughable, with little/no increased utility.

IMO Salvage is a much better system that involves a challenge- with a bit of a random element to keep things dynamic. I'd rather not be spoonfed easy rewards... If i wanted everything to be as easy as limbus i'd be playing WoW.

Yeah... I went there...

Your LS is done with limbus as soon salvage is released?... How convenient. Thing should be like that...however, they wont with salvage since no one is ever going to be done farming it....no one is ever going to get close of capping their salvage gears either if thing dont change.


As for limbus, it's true most of us got what we wanted, but people still level new job, and need new gears. And there is always new people who reach 75 and join endgame ls.