Heated Endgame Discussion

[Sylphet]

Why do I get the feeling from all this that 90% of the people on this forum put more effort into thinking about ways to improve FFXI than SE?

[aurik]

I wanted to comment specifically on Salvage:

Well let me respond.

1. Artificial Challenge:

Salvage is not hard because the mobs are particulary challenging. Rather, Salvage is hard because it places restrictions on the player. The gear that all of us have worked so hard to obtain over the years is taken away from us along with all of our stats. For about 50-60 minutes of the 100 minute run, many of the players won't be able to do much and some may not ever get their weapons/stats etc. People want something that is hard because it's hard, not because their characters are artificially gimped.

You call this "artificial", I call it "unique". You think it as "gimping", I call this forcing the players to deal with challenges without all the crutches of gear they've built up over the years.

2. Quirky/Lame drops/pop conditions:

Success in salvage involves obtaining cells to take away the restrictions on your character. However, these cells do not always drop the same way or in the same quantity. Thus, a run could be completely ruined from the start, not because of skill but rather because of crappy luck. Furthermore, in order to get ramparts to even pop in the first place there are some lame conditions involved that many aren't even totally sure of at the moment (read mad bomber). Then, even if the rampart pops, you have to get really lucky to get a drop. Again, these things are based on luck and can render an entire run useless if you get unlucky. People want something that's challenging because it takes skill to win, not because you have to get lucky.

Random cell quantities emphasizes spontenaiety in strategy rather than planning every last detail out beforehand. How you deal with cell shortages and abundances, and how you allow that to affect or enhance your performance is one of the core challenges in Salvage.

I agree Mad Bomber is lame if it's random pop, but the rest of the Bhaflau Ramparts and NMs seem to be triggerable 100%.

3. Oftentimes you come out completely empty-handed:

Salvage takes 2k AP points to enter and usually takes at least 2 hr's to form up and 100 minutes to run. 2k pionts could be used to buy salvage stuff and sell on the AH so points are worth money. Also, as always, time is money. Despite the cost, Salvage often yields nothing. Mobs don't drop currency or items for upgrade. Also, the droprates on the upgrade gear are pretty low. Lastly, if you screw up on one thing, wipe, someone doesn't bring reraise, or you get shafted on drops, then your run is pretty much done and you gain absolutely nothing for your 3 hours spent and 2k AP.

Salvage is actually relatively rewarding even now: if you schedule a time and stick to it, you can gather in under 30 minutes, 100 minutes of fighting, and possibly walk out with a key item to upgrade to the best armor in the game, with only 6-10 people. How is camping 2-3hrs for 6+ days straight for a d.feet is any better?

If you bring people that suck, forget proper medicine and fail to adjust, take forever to gather and bitch about things all the time, you might not have a good time. Stop going with lame people.

4. Too much instanced content that we still need stuff from:

Let's use dynamis as an example. Dynamis has been out for what ~3 years or so? Despite this fact, not many people have been able to get everything they want from dynamis to the point where they can move on. Thus, we have to keep doing dynamis day after day. Limbus is essentially the same way. Therefore, you have all this stuff that you still need from these events and there's simply not time to do Salvage. People look at limbus and dynamis and see items that they can get in a single drop on any given run and they like the thought of that rather than doing salvage which nobody really knows all that much about and takes a huge amt. of time and money to obtain the items.

You only have to keep doing an instance as long as it seems worthwhile to you. One reason why an instance would become "not worthwhile" could be because there are other instances which are more fun or more rewarding and due to limited playtime you need to choose between activities.

Each time SE adds a new activity, your endgame experience should improve or stay the same; either you decide the new activity is not worth your time and everything remains the same as you ignore it, or you decide the new activity is more rewarding/fresher/more fun than what you're doing now and your endgame experience is improved when you drop something not-as-fun to do the new activity.

5. The gear isn't that much better:

Lastly, Salvage gear really isn't that much better than gear already in the game that alot of people already have. Ares Cuirass is only debatebly better than koenig for pld for instance. Ares isn't going to decrease dmg taken significantly or make much of a noticeable difference in general. Morrigin also isn't that much better than anything else. It might add a few dmg per nuke but it's not game-altering. The points I'm trying to make is that the amt of time and money that you put into these items is not really worth it to most people to have a slight improvement in their performance.

"A slight improvement" describes everything in this game short of ridill, d.ring, aegis and gjallerhorn. You might as well not leave your moghouse if you're scared of investing time for slight improvements.

And Ares is only "debatably" better for a Koenig paladin? Wut? It's also an incredible armor for DRG, and I'm sure with the right gear set it would be as powerful as e.body for DRK and WAR...

Very very very little of the salvage gear is truly a waste for all jobs that can use it. Especially compared to the zilart abj. sets which are pretty much obsolete save hecatomb and 1-2 pieces from each other set.

[Khamsin]

You know what, after thinking about it, I think I rather like it when SE implements a rewarding activity that nobody wants to do. They shouldn't change Salvage at all.

That way, I can be the only one walking around in some of that gear (aside from others in my group) and my epeen will be enormous for being one of the only ones on the server with it.

[TheDiscoBiscuit]

Why do I get the feeling from all this that 90% of the people on this forum put more effort into thinking about ways to improve FFXI than SE?

Qft.

[Not Kuno]

You know what, after thinking about it, I think I rather like it when SE implements a rewarding activity that nobody wants to do. They shouldn't change Salvage at all.

That way, I can be the only one walking around in some of that gear (aside from others in my group) and my epeen will be enormous for being one of the only ones on the server with it.

Damn right. 8)

[Pacha]

Aurik's post

All legit responses. I don't really dislike Salvage but these are the main reasons why I think the general majority of ppl don't do it. It has been very difficult to motivate to do Salvage and most LS's aren't willing to give up other events for it. I look at it mainly in terms of pld because it's my first job and always my focus. In terms of pld, the gear is pretty much a slight improvement. I guess I'm hoping for something like an improved dring or another way to obtain a similar item and I think I'm probably only in for disappointment if I'm hoping for that heh ; ;.

*edit fixed -.-.

[Taj]

Did you really have to quote his entire post? Seriously, come on.

[Koga]

All legit responses. I don't really dislike Salvage but these are the main reasons why I think the general majority of ppl don't do it. It has been very difficult to motivate to do Salvage and most LS's aren't willing to give up other events for it. I look at it mainly in terms of pld because it's my first job and always my focus. In terms of pld, the gear is pretty much a slight improvement. I guess I'm hoping for something like an improved dring or another way to obtain a similar item and I think I'm probably only in for disappointment if I'm hoping for that heh ; ;.

So in essence what you want is a drop that would negate the older content (which i believe SE is trying to avoid.. see WoW > Kalimdor Continents since release of the Outlands/Burning Crusade)
If your LS isn't willing then they have no motivation. Even if it is a 'slight upgrade' and not some massive lawl no point going to camp kings anymore armor.. You should be happy for that 'slight upgrade' because now you can work yourself up that much more.
My point is something like this.. if you don't care about minor upgrades and only large upgrades then you really don't care about the job. Fact is that they will more than liekly never add something better than a D.Ring.
Be happy for what you can get and be happy you have new content to work though instead of QQing about something you can't get.

[Sykes]

You know what, after thinking about it, I think I rather like it when SE implements a rewarding activity that nobody wants to do. They shouldn't change Salvage at all.

That way, I can be the only one walking around in some of that gear (aside from others in my group) and my epeen will be enormous for being one of the only ones on the server with it.

This is pretty much the same conclusion I've reached after reading this thread. If people don't like it, then that's their problem, not mine. I enjoy Salvage ... most of the people in my group who have been to a Salvage boss fight say that it is the most fun they've had in the game in a long time ... so what difference does it make to me that people would rather spend 3 hours staring at darters than go to Salvage? In the mean time, I'll be having fun with it and perhaps get a few pieces of best-of-class gear along the way. But quite frankly, I really couldn't care less about the gear (though as WHM and BRD with a BLM that I don't really enjoy playing anymore, I don't have much reason to care about the gear anyway except just to look different).

I hope they make some very minor tweaks to certain aspects, but leave much of it exactly the same as it is now.

[Koga]

You know what, after thinking about it, I think I rather like it when SE implements a rewarding activity that nobody wants to do. They shouldn't change Salvage at all.

That way, I can be the only one walking around in some of that gear (aside from others in my group) and my epeen will be enormous for being one of the only ones on the server with it.

QFT.

[Sylphet]

I too really enjoy salvage in comparison to many of the older events. I go with a relatively small team (9-10) of people who i consider to be my friends. We go 2-3 times a week and target the zones we want to farm for drops then move on to the zones we need to complete the gear sets.
I think it's the closest thing we've seen in ages to gear that's even remotely comparable to king drops.
Several of the people in my group are only 1 drop away from completing an armor piece and we just recently finished ares body.

ok rant time though (since this seems like an appropriate place)...

I seriously think that SE has gotten us so accustomed to eating shit from them that we jump at the idea of ANYTHING new. It's absolutely absurd that there hasn't been anything better than the king drops until now (and even now it's debatable if it's better or just comparable).

Is it truly that hard to add better items to the game and ::gasp:: HARDER NMS TO KILL?!?

Problem with botters? instance them.. There's ALWAYS a way to implement changes if you really want them.

People go back and forth about these player based ideas but really... for better or for worse most of them are better than what we currently do :/

Most of the people in my linkshell just hate dealing with kings/sky issues so much we have over 15 people who want cuisses and a dalmatica/adaberk/ridill backlist that's just stupidly staggering.

The only thing that I think SE has done a superb job of is creating a community.. but sometimes I wonder if that community would be as strong if we didn't have SE to bitch about!

[mikazuki]

the set effects only have to be about +5 (DA, fast cast, MAB, etc.) for the full sets to be close to the max gear you can get otherwise - if the set effects are +10, statistically i think that's where they become better.
how much less time it takes to get the sets compared to current 'best' sets is up to the groups involved.

[Demetrius*]

salvage just has a very high learning curve which i think turns people off of it for the most part. its really hard to organize and do successfully without putting a lot of thought into it(expecially the bosses)

[Ambir]

All legit responses. I don't really dislike Salvage but these are the main reasons why I think the general majority of ppl don't do it. It has been very difficult to motivate to do Salvage and most LS's aren't willing to give up other events for it. I look at it mainly in terms of pld because it's my first job and always my focus. In terms of pld, the gear is pretty much a slight improvement. I guess I'm hoping for something like an improved dring or another way to obtain a similar item and I think I'm probably only in for disappointment if I'm hoping for that heh ; ;.

*edit fixed -.-.

I think it's hard to motivate people in general. People are going to keep complaining so long as the best items in the game aren't handed to everyone on a platter.

There have been complaints for years that the best gear in the game comes from mobs like Nidhogg that pop once a week and have huge competition. Now a lot of that gear is bettered, and it's accessable to everyone, but it will still take work to get it.

In any MMPG the best items are going to take work to obtain. Noones going to keep playing a game if they've got all the best gear within a week of turning 75. Salvage is the result of all the complaints about Land Gods.

[Rentwokay]

What the hell is all this talk about "artificial challenges"? Either something is a challenge, or it's not.

Level caps don't work.
Pathos doesn't work.
Pop times don't work.
Drop rates don't work.
Time limits don't work.
Access to two hours doesn't work.
Summoned pets don't work.
Insanely powerful magic spells don't work.
Insanely powerful TP moves don't work.
Rage modes don't work.

What the hell are you people expecting? A Level 1 NM in West Sarutabaruta that pops every 15 minutes, uses no TP attacks but Bubble Shower and Sound Blast, can't cast magic or use two-hours, and drops the best weapons in the game at a 100% rate, but has something obscene like 10,000,000 HP so all you need to do is fill the alliance with a buttload of melees and zerg it?

Jesus Christ, if that's the case, all SE needs to do is redo the Twinkling Treant event and make it drop Ridills and Salvage pieces.

[Keno]

Why do I get the feeling from all this that 90% of the people on this forum put more effort into thinking about ways to improve FFXI than SE?

Qft.

Your avatar makes jesus cry.

[Sagacious Sundi]

What the hell is all this talk about "artificial challenges"? Either something is a challenge, or it's not.

Level caps don't work.
Pathos doesn't work.
Pop times don't work.
Drop rates don't work.
Time limits don't work.
Access to two hours doesn't work.
Summoned pets don't work.
Insanely powerful magic spells don't work.
Insanely powerful TP moves don't work.
Rage modes don't work.

What the hell are you people expecting? A Level 1 NM in West Sarutabaruta that pops every 15 minutes, uses no TP attacks but Bubble Shower and Sound Blast, can't cast magic or use two-hours, and drops the best weapons in the game at a 100% rate, but has something obscene like 10,000,000 HP so all you need to do is fill the alliance with a buttload of melees and zerg it?

Jesus Christ, if that's the case, all SE needs to do is redo the Twinkling Treant event and make it drop Ridills and Salvage pieces.

I think by artificial challenge most people mean level caps/Pathos of Alzadaal, since they basically kill progression since some/all of the equipment you worked to get are now crapped on (although you can get them back in Salvage so in a way that is an artificial challenge that can be partially eliminated by proper strategies, so it's artificial + strategy challenge.)

However, I stopped reading several pages before the thread was separated, so if someone did say something like ALL of those things are "artificial challenges", bear with me.

And yes, that avatar makes all important (and unimportant) religious figures cry and makes Scientology seem logical.

[divisortheory]

although you can get them back in Salvage so in a way that is an artificial challenge that can be partially eliminated by proper strategies, so it's artificial + strategy challenge.)

In most cases, all that gear you worked so hard for is back so fast you barely even knew it was gone.

[Sagacious Sundi]

although you can get them back in Salvage so in a way that is an artificial challenge that can be partially eliminated by proper strategies, so it's artificial + strategy challenge.)

In most cases, all that gear you worked so hard for is back so fast you barely even knew it was gone.

I'll take your word since you're a regular Salvager.

[Koga]

Jesus Christ, if that's the case, all SE needs to do is redo the Twinkling Treant event and make it drop Ridills and Salvage pieces.

Best Idea Yet!
Seriously though how funny would that be..