Heated Endgame Discussion

[Quicklet]

Why should I have been sarcastic? Are those items not good? Are they not instanced so that anyone has access to achieve them? OH WAIT, THE DROP RATE SUCKS, I FORGOT WE WANT REALLY AWESOME EQUIPMENT TO BE EASY TO GET.

Those items are decent. They are marginal upgrades for a LV75, and the benefit of the ring is more for level cap content than at LV75, even though it is one of the better rings available in the game at LV75. Are they "AWESOME" as you say? In some respects, you could argue for it, in others, they are minor upgrades and more situational gear as usual.

I'm not saying I'm expecting stuff that is twice as good as Zilart cursed gear, far from it. I'm just saying that I'm not going to be all hurrah for minor upgrades that you have to luck into over the course of, what, weeks, months even? Who knows if it'll even still be relevant for a LV75 by the end of ToAU.

[divisortheory]

My point was not that all amazing items should be similar to the ones I mentioned. My point was that the progression of items from rank 1 assaults to rank 7 assaults is very pronounced, and with the introduction of 3-4 new ranks, I can imagine that some of the later ones actually will be on par with how I would consider that new endgame items should be. Obviously it's just speculation, but I see no reason they would not continue to follow the same pattern.

[Tekki]

If I'm not mistaken, didn't the lady whom Bercus interview say that some of our answers to his questions would be in this very update?

I usually dont get my hopes up on updates but this has been the most intriguing point dealing with this update. Other then the potential behind Assualt announcements, I view the current notes as being relatively weak. The heated discussions over the flaws with this game are reaching a breaking point. Berc's email has been going unanswered for months now. Then, he received the message that some of the issues in the email will be addressed in the patch. As much as we know there are fans of this game that don't think there are major problems and are happy with the game, their are clearly many players that are frustrated with it. Its getting to the point where they need to address issues before these players lose their sanity. Throw in the "Premier site" event at LA, I think this patch potentially could be huge. Id venture to say, it needs to be huge.

We've had enough updates that have boiled excitement in the past, then come crashing down in disappointment, to know never to get hopes up. But I think, at this point so late in the game, its time to do some major overhauling to ease player frustrations, or face more serious negative player opinions.

[Xavier]

This update is feeling very weak.

The new Assault ranks will be enough for me.

Obviously I have my gripes about HNMs, but since we can both agree no drastic changes will be happening anytime soon to them, new Assault ranks is enough for me too, esp. if it opens up a new line of gear and even more so if the ??? items become even better.

OH WAIT, THE DROP RATE SUCKS, I FORGOT WE WANT REALLY AWESOME EQUIPMENT TO BE EASY TO GET.

I can't speak for everyone but I personally like the challenge in obtaining an item to be the difficulty of the mob, not having to kill the mob 1,000 times for a drop.

When the ability to accomplish something has little relationship to the likelyhood of being rewarded, its kinda fucked up.

[NynJa]

Those items are decent. They are marginal upgrades for a LV75, and the benefit of the ring is more for level cap content than at LV75, even though it is one of the better rings available in the game at LV75. Are they "AWESOME" as you say? In some respects, you could argue for it, in others, they are minor upgrades and more situational gear as usual.

I'm not saying I'm expecting stuff that is twice as good as Zilart cursed gear, far from it. I'm just saying that I'm not going to be all hurrah for minor upgrades that you have to luck into over the course of, what, weeks, months even? Who knows if it'll even still be relevant for a LV75 by the end of ToAU.

Everything in FFXI is a minor upgrade from what is previously available...

The difference between a Sniper's Ring and Sniper's Ring+1 is 2 accuracy (and racc, but there are more potent racc rings elsewhere...and more def down), however people will pay top dollar for that extra two accuracy. That's a marginal upgrade, but people will oogle over it.

[Khalil]

Everything in FFXI is a minor upgrade from what is previously available...

The difference between a Sniper's Ring and Sniper's Ring+1 is 2 accuracy (and racc, but there are more potent racc rings elsewhere...and more def down), however people will pay top dollar for that extra two accuracy. That's a marginal upgrade, but people will oogle over it.

More often than not, people will pay top dollar for the white box.

[ringthree]

This thread is just going to turn into "ZOMG if this update doesn't rock I am going to quit" again.

It's just getting old, the game is great but far from perfect. And the grass is always greener in someone else's mythical world. We get it, SE hates us all, and are basically a company based on torturing those addicted to the FFXI brand name.

[Jer]

Everything in FFXI is a minor upgrade from what is previously available...

The difference between a Sniper's Ring and Sniper's Ring+1 is 2 accuracy (and racc, but there are more potent racc rings elsewhere...and more def down), however people will pay top dollar for that extra two accuracy. That's a marginal upgrade, but people will oogle over it.

More often than not, people will pay top dollar for the white box.

Some people are getting smarter though, and not paying an over-inflated price. I chuckle whenever I see a hq on the ah and it gets sent back because they're wanting too much for it. There's an item I've been watching, and it literally has been listed and been getting sent back for a month and a half because the guy is wanting what was the going price 7-8 months ago and there really isn't a demand for it.

[Xavier]

This thread is just going to turn into "ZOMG if this update doesn't rock I am going to quit" again.

Don't read it then. Seeing as how this thread started in response to that exact attitude, its kind of funny you think thats the purpose.

[Terrance]

Why should I have been sarcastic? Are those items not good? Are they not instanced so that anyone has access to achieve them? OH WAIT, THE DROP RATE SUCKS, I FORGOT WE WANT REALLY AWESOME EQUIPMENT TO BE EASY TO GET.

Are you saying assault isn't easy? Sorry if something so trivial is a challenge for you.

[Jeryhn]

Why should I have been sarcastic? Are those items not good? Are they not instanced so that anyone has access to achieve them? OH WAIT, THE DROP RATE SUCKS, I FORGOT WE WANT REALLY AWESOME EQUIPMENT TO BE EASY TO GET.

Are you saying assault isn't easy? Sorry if something so trivial is a challenge for you.

Stuck on Lebros Supplies?

[TheDiscoBiscuit]

People should really read before they post.

[Quicklet]

Obviously it's just speculation, but I see no reason they would not continue to follow the same pattern.

I used to say that for CoP patches. What I ended up with was massive disappointment for 80% of the expansion. I learned not to speculate on what SE is or isn't going to add.

Everything in FFXI is a minor upgrade from what is previously available...

The difference between a Sniper's Ring and Sniper's Ring+1 is 2 accuracy (and racc, but there are more potent racc rings elsewhere...and more def down), however people will pay top dollar for that extra two accuracy. That's a marginal upgrade, but people will oogle over it.

Not everything is a minor upgrade from what is previously available, and I'm not saying that everything needs to be huge upgrades. The reality is that most of the upgrades are still situational upgrades and don't actually replace old gear, just add onto it if you want to be a min-maxer.

It's also two different things to compare marginal upgrades that you can get with just extra gil, which for a large number of people in the past hasn't taken any time investment, just a little swipe of the card, and marginal upgrades that take actual time invested into the game to get, time that might amount to hours or even days worth of playtime for that marginal upgrade. If it took people 30-50 hours of playtime just to get that extra +2 accuracy, I'm not sure you'd see so many people running around with that marginal upgrade.

Case in point: Salvage gear. I like the Salvage gear sets, they're in most cases alternatives and in some cases marginal to clear upgrades to what is available. I don't see people falling over each other to do Salvage to get them because they don't want to put in the time / money for that marginal upgrade (though for a lot of them, it's probably a much bigger upgrade because I'll bet a lot more LV75s have realistic access to Salvage than they have a realistic chance at claiming 3kings).

All I'm saying is that I'll believe that the worthwhile item trend is coming when it actually comes, not when I think it's coming.

[MF Perm]

I don't understand how anyone could argue that a progessive;y tiered endgame system would ruin the game. In comparison to the free-for-all system that you can basically beat anything with numbers and time, saying that better drop rates or progress in endgame will ruin the game is a moot point.

Everyone here has seen RMT or some HNMls literally zerg an HNM with 60 people and win. Or RMT or a hardcore HNMls camp stuff around the clock.

I wouldn't be unhappy if they left the game is it is but added a new system of endgame that made RoZ era stuff irrelevant for older players. They are on the right track with Limbus, Assault and Salvage - all they need to do is throw an HNM at the end that either gives extra points towards purrchasing or drops elite items.

The system they have now is completely time based. If you have more free time, you can camp the HNM that drop the best items. If you have a group of people with that freedom, you're going to own the shit out of endgame HNM.

Too bad they ruined relic attainment by making it something you could RMT for. I think it would be alot more interesting if it was completely designed like the last few stages of it are. A specific NM that can randomly drop an item that would lead up to it. They could have designed it so it still takes over a year for one person to get it. I know there are arguments against this but there are ways to balance it so it isn't always "Well an LS leader and his friends can such-and-such and just do it for themselves". I'm sure it could be designed in a way that it couldn't be taken advantage of.

Dynamis and Limbus were designed nearly perfect imo. They were developed with a tier system in mind by having players gain access to higher tiers and having a wait time to re-enter. Imagine having an endgame area with tiered levels and bosses at each end with good drops and a clearance to the next area. Having it all reset once you clear the final boss.

HOLY FUCKING SHIT PEOPLE FEELING ACCOMPLISHMENT ON SEVERAL LEVELS, AND NOT BEING ABLE TO GO TO THE TOP LEVEL TO FARM THE SHIT OUT OF ONE THING. AMAZING.

I'd like to hear some arguments on how this would ruin the game though.

[NynJa]

Why should I have been sarcastic? Are those items not good? Are they not instanced so that anyone has access to achieve them? OH WAIT, THE DROP RATE SUCKS, I FORGOT WE WANT REALLY AWESOME EQUIPMENT TO BE EASY TO GET.

Are you saying assault isn't easy? Sorry if something so trivial is a challenge for you.

He's refering to the appraisal rate on good stuff you dumbass.

[Khamsin]

What, you mean people don't get Divisor Rings every time they do Azure Experiments?

[Quicklet]

post

The main argument against progressive endgame is that it causes mudflation, which has two main effects.

The first is that it creates an increasing gap between older players and newer players, so that instead of taking a couple of months to a year for a newer player to catch up to older players, it becomes nearly impossible to do so. This is most evident through level cap increases and alternate experience systems (Alternate Advancement, the EQ equivalent of merits except much more extensive, while being an amazingly great concept for EQ and an initially optional system, also was one of the biggest reasons for mudflation because of how wide the gap became between those with AA and those without). You can already see the effects of the merit system in FFXI, and it's only a shadow of the behemoth that was AA, but it probably plays the biggest role in true advancement since its inception.

The second is that this mudflation trivializes older content. Very few existing players do the older content, which means that newer players often have nobody to do older content with. If the older content is required to progress to the newer content, then they're pretty much screwed. If the new players just level up past the older content, then there's almost no reason to have the older content exist anymore.

There are a number of possible fixes to these two main issues, though they are really systemic to progression systems that are not designed to take them into account. In the case of the second, one result has been that in EQ, some of the older zones have been revamped and updated to be newer content. A main example of this was Veeshan's Peak, the endgame zone for EQ's 1st expansion and probably a more hardcore place than anything that's been in FFXI for various reasons.

Overall though, I think whether or not an MMO chooses to go the progression route, after a certain point the new subscriber base dries up anyways, so why not cater to providing new content to existing players? There are obvious things you want to try and avoid doing if you can, but if you don't, aren't you just ending up with the same content in different packaging over and over again?

[MF Perm]

post

The main argument against progressive endgame is that it causes mudflation, which has two main effects.

The first is that it creates an increasing gap between older players and newer players, so that instead of taking a couple of months to a year for a newer player to catch up to older players, it becomes nearly impossible to do so. This is most evident through level cap increases and alternate experience systems (Alternate Advancement, the EQ equivalent of merits except much more extensive, while being an amazingly great concept for EQ and an initially optional system, also was one of the biggest reasons for mudflation because of how wide the gap became between those with AA and those without). You can already see the effects of the merit system in FFXI, and it's only a shadow of the behemoth that was AA, but it probably plays the biggest role in true advancement since its inception.

The second is that this mudflation trivializes older content. Very few existing players do the older content, which means that newer players often have nobody to do older content with. If the older content is required to progress to the newer content, then they're pretty much screwed. If the new players just level up past the older content, then there's almost no reason to have the older content exist anymore.

There are a number of possible fixes to these two main issues, though they are really systemic to progression systems that are not designed to take them into account. In the case of the second, one result has been that in EQ, some of the older zones have been revamped and updated to be newer content. A main example of this was Veeshan's Peak, the endgame zone for EQ's 1st expansion and probably a more hardcore place than anything that's been in FFXI for various reasons.

Overall though, I think whether or not an MMO chooses to go the progression route, after a certain point the new subscriber base dries up anyways, so why not cater to providing new content to existing players? There are obvious things you want to try and avoid doing if you can, but if you don't, aren't you just ending up with the same content in different packaging over and over again?

What you are desciribing are inherent design flaws in EQs progression approach.

For one, every endgame HNM and event can be done with 18 or fewer. For two, and everyone knows this to be true in FFXI - when you lose older people who tend to quit you need to recruit new people. What does this mean? Going back and clearing for people.

It's been done in the past, it continues now, and it will continue in the future.

A statement that progression in general will cause mudflation in general is not a valid argument. Now, I understand that an entirely tiered endgame system based on expansion would cause issues, but at this point I don't think SE really has to worry about new players coming in as much as they used to. Especially since in comparison to other MMO's you can level whatever job you want on the same character without penalty.

Comparing what progression did to other games with different rules, systems and design is completely irrelevant to what it would or could do to this game. A solid combination of free-for-all content and instanced progression ( such as Dynamis and Limbus ) wouldn't hurt the game one bit. Especially since older content is designed as free-for-all to begin with, allowing anyone at anytime to complete it.

And personally if it is the case that it causes older content to be ignored, I think that's a helluva lot better than a bottleneck on 3 year old content.

God forbid people think things through and come up with an intelligent system that prevents past problems and anticipates future problems.

[TheDiscoBiscuit]

Yea!!! God Forbid!!

[ringthree]

This thread is just going to turn into "ZOMG if this update doesn't rock I am going to quit" again.

Don't read it then. Seeing as how this thread started in response to that exact attitude, its kind of funny you think thats the purpose.

Actually thats not even close to the reason this thread was started, in fact it was pretty much the opposite. Just because you want to put your negative little spin on everything doesn't mean everyone else is negative.