Heated Endgame Discussion

[RuBP]

This thread is just going to turn into "ZOMG if this update doesn't rock I am going to quit" again.

Don't read it then. Seeing as how this thread started in response to that exact attitude, its kind of funny you think thats the purpose.

Actually thats not even close to the reason this thread was started, in fact it was pretty much the opposite. Just because you want to put your negative little spin on everything doesn't mean everyone else is negative.

Xavier started this thread.

[solsovly]

There are a number of possible fixes to these two main issues, though they are really systemic to progression systems that are not designed to take them into account. In the case of the second, one result has been that in EQ, some of the older zones have been revamped and updated to be newer content. A main example of this was Veeshan's Peak, the endgame zone for EQ's 1st expansion and probably a more hardcore place than anything that's been in FFXI for various reasons.

Man, what I wouldn't give to have something like the old Veeshan's Peak in FFXI. It wouldn't be the same since dying in EQ and dying in FFXI are two completely things. Just the level of difficulty would be really nice for a challenge.

[Aerin]

This thread is just going to turn into "ZOMG if this update doesn't rock I am going to quit" again.

Don't read it then. Seeing as how this thread started in response to that exact attitude, its kind of funny you think thats the purpose.

Actually thats not even close to the reason this thread was started, in fact it was pretty much the opposite. Just because you want to put your negative little spin on everything doesn't mean everyone else is negative.

I think you should read what he wrote again.

Also to note, when you jump into the middle of a conversation be sure you know what everyone's talking about.

[Ferien]

This thread is just going to turn into "ZOMG if this update doesn't rock I am going to quit" again.

Don't read it then. Seeing as how this thread started in response to that exact attitude, its kind of funny you think thats the purpose.

Actually thats not even close to the reason this thread was started, in fact it was pretty much the opposite. Just because you want to put your negative little spin on everything doesn't mean everyone else is negative.

Xavier started this thread.

Owned.

[MF Perm]

This thread is just going to turn into "ZOMG if this update doesn't rock I am going to quit" again.

Don't read it then. Seeing as how this thread started in response to that exact attitude, its kind of funny you think thats the purpose.

Actually thats not even close to the reason this thread was started, in fact it was pretty much the opposite. Just because you want to put your negative little spin on everything doesn't mean everyone else is negative.

Xavier started this thread.

Owned.

I hope this guy replies back now, I'd like to see the damage control on this one.

[Sho]

[quote=MF Perm]

This thread is just going to turn into "ZOMG if this update doesn't rock I am going to quit" again.

Don't read it then. Seeing as how this thread started in response to that exact attitude, its kind of funny you think thats the purpose.

Actually thats not even close to the reason this thread was started, in fact it was pretty much the opposite. Just because you want to put your negative little spin on everything doesn't mean everyone else is negative.

Xavier started this thread.

Owned.

I hope this guy replies back now, I'd like to see the damage control on this one.[/quote:0741a]

Really makes my day when someone jumps in the convo half assed and gets pwnt in the face.

[Sykes]

Really makes my day when someone jumps in the convo half assed and gets pwnt in the face.

The only problem is that the statement is wrong ... Xavier didn't start the thread. This thread was originally part of the Questions to SE- November (latest email on page 23) thread, but was split off (by Xavier I assume) because it had derailed so far from the original topic.

I'm not defending the guy; I'm just clarifying the situation.

[MF Perm]

Really makes my day when someone jumps in the convo half assed and gets pwnt in the face.

The only problem is that the statement is wrong ... Xavier didn't start the thread. This thread was originally part of the Questions to SE- November (latest email on page 23) thread, but was split off (by Xavier I assume) because it had derailed so far from the original topic.

I'm not defending the guy; I'm just clarifying the situation.

In definition, he did start the thread. He just didn't start the line of coversation.

[Aerin]

i still stand by what i said

[Talint]

So, yeah. Wow. I read all 26 pages of this thread.

I think the problem basically boils down to a few key issues.


1. The game is stagnantly repetitive.
The formula for each expansion pack has been the same. Save for the addition of some minor quests (and Apocalypse Nigh), there has been absolutely no blending of any of the expanded content into each other. If you want abjurations or AFv2, you go to Zilart stuff. If you want sea torques or AF+1, you go do Promathia stuff. Even CoP Wyrms, ToaU Kings, are all unique to their own game. New things always have new stuff, and old things are not modified. I believe someone mentioned it already, but I figure it's a point worth readdressing: There would be a lot more activity at Jormy/Vrtra if they dropped abjurations. But content is never blended.


2. There's not enough loot.
There's been a lot of talk about "new gear" and "character progression"; the idea being that new gear has to be better, and that'll make the old gear obsolete. Part of this is the playerbase's fault, having analyzed to death what is optimal and best; part of it is Squenix's fault for having designed such a ridiculously simplistic system.

Yet, there isn't much alternative to what is the best gear anyway. There are still many, many types of items that could be added without obsoleting old stuff. And I don't even mean Ridill-type stuff; just stuff that forces players to start making choices or new analysis of methodology again. I'll leave the theory of obsoleting gear to those much smarter than I.


3. Lack of evolution.
The developers seem to be a year+ behind as to what the playerbase yearns and craves for, and that any effort that is thrown in is either outdated, horribly misinterpreted, or inconsequential. The game fails to evolve with its playerbase, and instead keeps heading on the exact same course with very little change.

E.G.: Relic weapons were designed with the idea in mind that they were the end-all and be-all of weapons. The Final Fantasy series has had a tradition for a while now where players could quest for "ultimate weapons"; and FFXI honors that idea with Relic Weapons.

The idea was conceived about three years ago though, and since then, the game has gone through several paradigm shifts; but these weapons remain the same. Ridill still beats out an Excalibur, and a Claustrum is a joke to everybody. Why not simply add "Enmity +12" to Excalibur or a "Avatar Perpetuation Cost -7/Magic Atk. Bonus +15" to Claustrum or something along those lines?


All of the issues I've mentioned are key development issues for FFXI's endgame. The game has additional issues that should be addressed, but seeing as how this is an endgame forum, I've restricted myself to what should be done about its endgame.

I've been playing from the get-go, and I still enjoy the game, though not nearly as much as when I first started. It deserves, like anything good, to be critically assessed; so that it could be honed into something great. And when the developers continue to fail to deliver time after time, it does leave little to be desired.

[Sho]

Same here, lol. >_>

I came late to this discussion as well (albeit before the topic split), but I didn't say much, I read first.

[Aerin]

I think the problem basically boils down to a few key issues.

Concur with everything that followed

[Sho]

I think the problem basically boils down to a few key issues.

Concur with everything that followed

Gotta agree as well.

[Kyreth]

The main argument against progressive endgame is that it causes mudflation, which has two main effects.

The first is that it creates an increasing gap between older players and newer players, so that instead of taking a couple of months to a year for a newer player to catch up to older players, it becomes nearly impossible to do so. This is most evident through level cap increases and alternate experience systems (Alternate Advancement, the EQ equivalent of merits except much more extensive, while being an amazingly great concept for EQ and an initially optional system, also was one of the biggest reasons for mudflation because of how wide the gap became between those with AA and those without). You can already see the effects of the merit system in FFXI, and it's only a shadow of the behemoth that was AA, but it probably plays the biggest role in true advancement since its inception.

The second is that this mudflation trivializes older content. Very few existing players do the older content, which means that newer players often have nobody to do older content with. If the older content is required to progress to the newer content, then they're pretty much screwed. If the new players just level up past the older content, then there's almost no reason to have the older content exist anymore.

Items also cause mudflation- and the combined effect actually erodes interest in the game. People do their best to skip large chunks of content, leaving those newer players in the lurch while an ever decreasing core of older players compress inwards, simultaneously demanding more endgame as they erode the process that allows the game to sustain itself- the older content that made those players in the first place.

You complain about n00bs, and then powerlevel people new and old to the "good stuff" at higher levels. Then you wonder why they don't find anything worth doing (cause they never learned how) and watch them quit or buy gil to get their shinies, instead of actually, y'know doing stuff.

The higher the summit reaches, the fewer the people that are going to survive and the more daunting it gets for new players to even try. That's why content needs to be broader, rather than a linear progression upwards.

There are a number of possible fixes to these two main issues, though they are really systemic to progression systems that are not designed to take them into account. In the case of the second, one result has been that in EQ, some of the older zones have been revamped and updated to be newer content. A main example of this was Veeshan's Peak, the endgame zone for EQ's 1st expansion and probably a more hardcore place than anything that's been in FFXI for various reasons.

Overall though, I think whether or not an MMO chooses to go the progression route, after a certain point the new subscriber base dries up anyways, so why not cater to providing new content to existing players? There are obvious things you want to try and avoid doing if you can, but if you don't, aren't you just ending up with the same content in different packaging over and over again?

Oddly enough, this is not always the case. The first MMORPG I played, Gemstone ended up not only keeping it's population but transitioned it through an entirely new version (going from GS3 to GS4) in the same game world. A game can even grow modestly after it's initial rush, as long as that game isn't rendered such a hideous trip from bottom to top as to be incomprehensible to a new player- and old content is picked up, brushed off and worked on from time to time. Maybe it's a new race or starting city or even continent. Perhaps it's actually progressing the static timeline in a single jump-say, reawakening the beastman wars. Or altering an old area and the quests connected to it. Taking items that are utterly un-used and remaking them with new additions to the game that have happened since. There are plenty of options to spread a game further without making it daunting to go top to bottom.

Upwards eventually ends up choking from lack of air and distance. Outwards is infinitely preferable.

[Tekki]

E.G.: Relic weapons were designed with the idea in mind that they were the end-all and be-all of weapons. The Final Fantasy series has had a tradition for a while now where players could quest for "ultimate weapons"; and FFXI honors that idea with Relic Weapons.

The idea was conceived about three years ago though, and since then, the game has gone through several paradigm shifts; but these weapons remain the same. Ridill still beats out an Excalibur, and a Claustrum is a joke to everybody. Why not simply add "Enmity +12" to Excalibur or a "Avatar Perpetuation Cost -7/Magic Atk. Bonus +15" to Claustrum or something along those lines?

.

Dear SE, dont touch my sword unless you want to increase the dmg output.

Love Tekki

[Vistani]

There are a number of possible fixes to these two main issues, though they are really systemic to progression systems that are not designed to take them into account. In the case of the second, one result has been that in EQ, some of the older zones have been revamped and updated to be newer content. A main example of this was Veeshan's Peak, the endgame zone for EQ's 1st expansion and probably a more hardcore place than anything that's been in FFXI for various reasons.

Man, what I wouldn't give to have something like the old Veeshan's Peak in FFXI. It wouldn't be the same since dying in EQ and dying in FFXI are two completely things. Just the level of difficulty would be really nice for a challenge.

FFXI needs a Plane of Mischief. XPing on the Alice in Wonderland area was always fun rofl

[Shuemue]

Dear SE, dont touch my sword unless you want to turn it into the shield I should have got.

Love Tekki

Sorry >_>

[Tekki]

doesnt get old, does it?

[Ninjiz]

I think the argument "dont add prggression because it will split new players from the epxerienced ones" is ridiculous. No matter what was added, no matter what was upgrades. NEW players have STILL been able to stay a part of the community. Adding progression, and more tier content like Limbus or Dynamis, will NOT ruin this game. Not to mention there IS no super influx of new players coming out of the woodwork. There will ALWAYS be old players working with new players, old players go back and lvl new jobs all the time. Old players wouldnt be abandoned just because some new HNM with great gear popped up. Theres already 2 games in ffxi. Endgame, and everything else. This hasnt stopped new players from coming. Old players always quit, and new people replace them.

The fact that MANY MANY Endgame dynamis LS' who farm Xacabard all the time, and then accept a new person who needs clearance from Sandy and Windy, and will go BACK and take that person through the cities to get clearance so he can be on Xacabard too. NEw players will always have a way of joining in on the fun, and making new friends, and then getting help. and that wouldnt change with MORE limbus and dynamis style content.

And arguing about progression for existing players, and then worrying about players who havnt even started playing teh game is a moot point. Theres PLENTY of content out there for new players.

The thing you are arguing against is what WOW does perfectly. 8 mil subscribers. By doing EXACTLY what we are talking about. Theres content there for EVERYONE, new and old. Theres nothing wrong witha tier system for endgame content. The proof is already out there. So if youre going to compare games that use that style, then compare to a game that works, not to a game that it failed in.

[Delekii]

Limbus is not progression, it is parallel. Progression would assume that you need to do A first, then do B. You say that people go back and do Dynamis for new members, but A. I think that is not as common as you say, and B. it is a very limited example. Doing old dynamis is still beneficial for older members the majority of the time, as there is always another piece of AF to get as new jobs are levelled and the likes. Progression would mean that you need to do Bastok > Sandy > Windy > Jeuno > Beauc > Xarc.. and once you had reached Xarc there was no longer anything worth getting from the prior steps.


Comparing it with WoW is a misnomer, WoW is a FAR less elitist environment. You can go from 1-70 on gear you pickup along the way with no problems whatsoever, and then catch up on the gear you need. Also you need only take a look at old areas in WoW now and see how little use they get to see that progression does naturally kill off old content. Anything obtained pre-60 in WoW is now totally useless post-60, and 90% of it is replaced within a few hours of entering outlands. Now Azeroth is pretty much empty outside of main cities. In comparison, leveling in FFXI is a lot more difficult and reliant on OTHER PEOPLE, hence you and your gear will be more often subjected to scrutiny, and your ability to level dependant on active participants in your level range. Similarly, a game with 8 million subscribers and the ability to solo xp can hardly be compared to 500k subscribers and requiring 6 people at once to xp.

Personally I have no problem with moving sideways instead of upways, but SE just doesnt give enough comparable options and combinations. Like someone said earlier it's such a simplistic and elitist system that anything but the top piece of gear is undesirable and temporary.