Heated Endgame Discussion

[Xavier]

Limbus is not progression, it is parallel.

Personally I have no problem with moving sideways instead of upways, but SE just doesnt give enough comparable options and combinations. Like someone said earlier it's such a simplistic and elitist system that anything but the top piece of gear is undesirable and temporary.

Sideways is fines too. Its when you move backwards thats kind of confusing, which is what happens a lot in the game.

If you want to call Zilart the "max" gear, there should never be equally hard to obtain gear thats considerably worse.

[ringthree]

[quote=MF Perm]

This thread is just going to turn into "ZOMG if this update doesn't rock I am going to quit" again.

Don't read it then. Seeing as how this thread started in response to that exact attitude, its kind of funny you think thats the purpose.

Actually thats not even close to the reason this thread was started, in fact it was pretty much the opposite. Just because you want to put your negative little spin on everything doesn't mean everyone else is negative.

Xavier started this thread.

Owned.

I hope this guy replies back now, I'd like to see the damage control on this one.[/quote:69796]

Its easy, I thought this was split off from the Bercus post, I was wrong.

EDIT: WAIT IT WAS! Where is your damage control now!

This was the Bercus thread, thanks Sykes

EDIT 2 for vindication: I also posted earlier in that thread saying that it was useless. And before this thread was renamed it was already turning into "if this next update doesn't rock I am quitting."

[Delekii]

Limbus is not progression, it is parallel.

Personally I have no problem with moving sideways instead of upways, but SE just doesnt give enough comparable options and combinations. Like someone said earlier it's such a simplistic and elitist system that anything but the top piece of gear is undesirable and temporary.

Sideways is fines too. Its when you move backwards thats kind of confusing, which is what happens a lot in the game.

If you want to call Zilart the "max" gear, there should never be equally hard to obtain gear thats considerably worse.

Yep - way too many "oh this is somewhat cool" but not actually useful. It seems like SE has some reasonable ideas for INTERESTING situational pieces, but they are so afraid of making something slightly powerful they totally underwhelm whatever they create - either by adding considerable difficulty for only a slight step forward if forward at all (ala salvage), or totally underpowering an interesting piece of gear (ala berserker's torque, for example).

I mean.. why couldnt they have made Berserker's Torque something like 5-10hp/tick poison for 2-3 tp/tick? It still wouldnt be particularly powerful, but it would be interesting and potentially useful in some situations.

FFXI has a lot space for creative sideways movement in terms of itemisation, if SE would get over their fear of making powerful stuff, and actually utilise quality testing prior to releasing the shit.

[Lordender]

I personally think SE is a lazy company with this game, they had so many chances to fix all the end game concerns for years.

[Xavier]

And before this thread was renamed it was already turning into "if this next update doesn't rock I am quitting."

It wasn't, but ok.

[Lysithea]

It seems that people have gotten bored with most HNMs from their low drop rates, and doing the same fights over and over again and have come up with new ways to fight things better and faster. The problem with this is for newer members just coming into Endgame trying to figure out what to do and where to go and start is just to vast and much of it becomes a time sink.

Between Limbus, Dynamis, Salvage, Kings, ToAU HNM, Wyrms, Assaults, ENMs, CoP missions (for newer shells), farming Sea/Sky, the rewards and outcome do not equal the time put into it. For myself the End game community has become so large that i hold 3-5 different linkshells for each even so I can participate in other events, but sitting at Kings for 3 hours to watch the botting and loldrama does not = the reward at all.

More fights should be instanced and doable with a group of 6-12, all the content of expansion (Mission wise) released when the expansion does come out, and the missions be harder themselves and the outcome from the missions to get better as the expansion comes out and not like how Zilart and CoP were made out to be.

As for Dynamis prices as the economy is coming down the prices of the glass should be lowered although i have seen an increase in currency dropping since the last set of bannings.

And if SE does make more powerful stuff. Can we please not use that more powerful stuff to defeat the same weak HNMs that we've developed many different ways to fight? And for those people who do not have the time to completely submerse themselves into HNMLS' make instanced fights proportionately the same strength as those new poweful mobs?

[Ninjiz]

ReGARDLess if limbus is parralel. It STILL tier based content that WORKS. And THAt is progression. Its like 2 tiers to get Homam gear, and 3 tiers to get Narisha.

Assault is another example of tier based content. And i dont see how it coudl ruin the game. Your theory of alienating newer players just doesnt hold up. New players will ALWAYS find ways to be included.

And i never said people going back to old dunamis to get other people clearance happens ALL the time... it doesnt happen ALL the time mostly because there IS no super influx of new players. So youre arguing against progression in fear of seperating tyhe game from all these new players who dont exist.

The thing that factors to WOWs old content being useless.... is because it doesnt have the job system FFXI has. You think if we couldnt re lvl MULTIPLE jobs on the SAME character, and not take any penalty for the job change, and not have to create a new character that OLD zoens in FFXI wouldnt still be populated??? If we couldnt do those things, all that content before lvl 70 would be a wasteland.

But limbus style is still a type of Progression conent.
You must collect 4 chips in tier 1, to progress to tier 2 to face omega to get a shot at Omega. You must do tier 1 for 3 chips, then tier 2 for 3 more chips, to reach tier 3 for ultima

In assault you must climb up tiers to reach the next rank.

So in both cases you DO have to do A before you can do B, and both are perfect examples that content CAN be tier based AND potentially have superior gear to something from 3 years ago. (i say potentially because stuff that comes from the 3 kings is still a bit superior overall)

You cant knock FFXI because theres reasons to go back again. And the thing about WOW is they add enough NEW content, that the old content isnt that valid... but so what???? If theres content to REPLACE the old content how is that a bad thing?

Dynamis is similar, but not EVERY city is a seperate tier. You can call the 4 cities tier 1, and Northlands tier 2A and The other 4 Tier 2B.

The thing about FFXI is that theres ALWAYS people doing previous tiers, because peopel have multiple jobs lvld on teh same character. I Wow you dont get that option. THATS why previous zones are low populated. So regardless of lvl of equip, it can always be useful at some point to someone on an alt job. Look at White gate. Its so crowded the lag is crazy.... doesnt mean that jueno will be emptying anytime soon.

[Kyreth]

ReGARDLess if limbus is parralel. It STILL tier based content that WORKS. And THAt is progression. Its like 2 tiers to get Homam gear, and 3 tiers to get Narisha.

And...is Homam/Nashira gear required to do other content in the game? No.

Assault is another example of tier based content. And i dont see how it coudl ruin the game. Your theory of alienating newer players just doesnt hold up. New players will ALWAYS find ways to be included.

Excuse me, had to stop typing a second. I busted a lung laughing there. Eventually, they don't- and that kills a games repopulation ability.

And i never said people going back to old dunamis to get other people clearance happens ALL the time... it doesnt happen ALL the time mostly because there IS no super influx of new players. So youre arguing against progression in fear of seperating tyhe game from all these new players who dont exist.

...of course, you go much further and the rate of burnout exceeds the rate of growth. At that point, you do end up seeing the lolZAM "Is FFXI Dying?" posts come to pass.

The thing that factors to WOWs old content being useless.... is because it doesnt have the job system FFXI has. You think if we couldnt re lvl MULTIPLE jobs on the SAME character, and not take any penalty for the job change, and not have to create a new character that OLD zoens in FFXI wouldnt still be populated??? If we couldnt do those things, all that content before lvl 70 would be a wasteland.

People are already doing plenty to skip over old content as it is. I'm seeing PT's in their 50's being PLed through Crawler's Nest. And that's another reason new content can't be focused solely at the top. A game that gets topheavy is already suffering, because there's precious little to help new players work their way up other than idiots going "Get a PL n00b" or simply ignoring them. For FFXI, the warning signs are already up on this. Going further down that road is asking for another EQ-style collapse.

Make the game WoW-like in it's gearup ability, and welcome the emptiness. Add content that makes for new places and interesting areas to do the newbie-to-veteran run, and you maintain that precious thin line that connects level 1 to endgamer.

But limbus style is still a type of Progression conent.
You must collect 4 chips in tier 1, to progress to tier 2 to face omega to get a shot at Omega. You must do tier 1 for 3 chips, then tier 2 for 3 more chips, to reach tier 3 for ultima

Yet Omega/Ultima doesn't act as a barrier to exploring other content. You don't HAVE to have the gear to take on certain HNMs, or explore large portions of an expansion, or break a level cap. That's not "progression" as Xavier defined it- it's merely going through a set of content that's A to B to C. Not doing it doesn't bar or prevent you from going to do some other A-B-C.

In assault you must climb up tiers to reach the next rank.

Ditto, and even less so as you can spam a Tier 1 assault all the way to the top rank (it's just slower)...in fact, given two dummy players you could literally do Golden Salvage all the way to Sgt. Major if you so desired...solo.

So in both cases you DO have to do A before you can do B, and both are perfect examples that content CAN be tier based AND potentially have superior gear to something from 3 years ago. (i say potentially because stuff that comes from the 3 kings is still a bit superior overall)

Nice try, but no. You don't have to have gear from earlier assault ranks to win on higher ones- only enough runs to rank up. You don't have to have drops from Limbus to beat Ultima or Omega- all you need are the keys for entry (chips).

You cant knock FFXI because theres reasons to go back again. And the thing about WOW is they add enough NEW content, that the old content isnt that valid... but so what???? If theres content to REPLACE the old content how is that a bad thing?

Because that content increasingly invalidates the process that maintains the game, if it's aimed at pushing a linear progression forwards. It is, in effect throwing in the towel on keeping your game able to regenerate itself. If new content acts as alternatives to the prior cycle from newbie to endgamer...it's an act of renewal. That good (large even) chunks of the inital ToAU quests are completely in safe areas (remind you of any of your old starting city quests?) I think is actually a relic of the original idea that ToAU would have a more broad level range of content. After all, you can get there with items a L30 player can gather reasonably, never mind the 50+ level folks who can actually exp reasonably in the expansion.

Dynamis is similar, but not EVERY city is a seperate tier. You can call the 4 cities tier 1, and Northlands tier 2A and The other 4 Tier 2B.

The thing about FFXI is that theres ALWAYS people doing previous tiers, because peopel have multiple jobs lvld on teh same character. I Wow you dont get that option. THATS why previous zones are low populated. So regardless of lvl of equip, it can always be useful at some point to someone on an alt job. Look at White gate. Its so crowded the lag is crazy.... doesnt mean that jueno will be emptying anytime soon.

Again- you don't need anything from prior Dynamis areas to go to the others- other than a single clear. No farming for gear. And again, gear from Dynamis isn't required to complete any other part of the game. It's rewarding and endgame content- but it's not a progression of tiered content.

As for people doing previous content...that's slowing somewhat. I see an increasing number of new players that don't advance in nation rank. Why? Long Signet times and CP gear is relatively useless in ToAU, and Al Zahbi is where people are at. There is already a degree of separation, of the ties between parts of the game coming loose.

Hell, I haven't moved my Home Point from Whitegate since I got there, months back. And Jeuno is less crowded. Sure, Lower Jeuno is hopping- but the crowds around every AH have died down quite a bit since Al Zahbi. Populations have split between the two big cities.

[Lysithea]

>.> I think what i was saying in my post was just implemented in the update lawl

[Kyreth]

>.> I think what i was saying in my post was just implemented in the update lawl

Reserving an opinion on that until it's actually implemented and explored some, rather than speculate. Still, it's definitely a change in the wind.

[Xavier]

THIS THREAD IS NOW POTENTIALLY POINTLESS SQUARE MIGHT OF ACTUALLY LISTENED LOL.

[Heian]

THIS THREAD IS NOW POTENTIALLY POINTLESS SQUARE MIGHT OF ACTUALLY LISTENED LOL.

We can only hope.

[Ninjiz]

Quoteing you made the post WAY too long... so im going to number them instead...

stuff

1.So what that has nothing to do with anything... items are STILL required to gain access to Homam... thats tierd content

2.LOL only person you should be laughing at is yourself... WoW 8 mil AND climbing subsribers prove me correct.

3.As long as new content kept coming, burnout wouldnt be in sight.

4.Oh please... i coudl care less if some guy is getting power lvld. Power lvling has existed since the game came out. New content wouldnt change that. And if theres NEw content i coudl care less what "old" content people skipped. If teh old content is replaced it wouldnt even matter.

5.ADDING elements of wow that WORK and keep your player base happy would NOT turn FFXI INTO wow.... Wow DOES add new areas... they added so much that teh world is bigger then vanadial as it stands now... theres PLENTY of content for newbie to vets, and so is FFXI. Added elements that work wont change that.

6.Dude what is wrong with you?? Can you NOT grasp teh concept that Limbus IS a SELF CONTAINED TIERED EVENT???? it IS POINT A B and the to C. Limbus is a SEPERATE EVENT in itself, and to even GET access to it, you MUST PROGRESS THROUGH the COP STORY LINE. You Need to comple mission 8 to gain access to Sea, without it you cant even get there. You have to finish missions to make your way to sky. A B C D E F and so on... adding MORE tier type content wont ruin anything. People New players STILL get help on missions so they can join teh rest of the people. You seem to forget that...

7.Spamming 1 assault has nothing to do with it...

8.Why the hell are you so focused on this concept of HAVING to have gear from previous content to finish other content? You dont have to have drops to beat Omega??? Last time i checked i NEEDED to have 4 DIFFERENt chips from 4 DIFEFRENT zones to go fight him... the chips ARE drops...nice try yourself.

9.So ***** what... thats doesnt mean a damn thing. If old contant is useless, and new contant takes it place that IS a alternative... Just because youre epeen will be crushed because you will die on teh inside because all taht precious gear you worked so hard for can now be replaced by something else.... well BOO HOO for you.... from lvl 1-75 previous gear has ALWAYS been rendered useless and replaced by something else... Your argument has no legs to stand on... Even NOW... Walahra Turban made the majority of people forget about using Optical hats, making optical hats usless to most people who arent rangers looking for the Rang acc. PERFECT example of NEW GEAR outright replacing pld gear that people worked hard to get. The only people that bitched about it, were EPEEN elitest. "Waaaaaah the turban made my O hat useless". Cry me a river, i dont care about yoru Epeen. I acre about new content that makes your player base happy and keep people playing by giving them bnew things to do.

10.For some strange reason you seem to think the def of tier ONLY refers to a piece of armor... HAVING TO BEAT ONE AREA BEFORE YOURE ALLOWED INTO THE NEXT AREA IS TIERD CONTENT... GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEAD.

11.SO WHAT.... if theres new content that makes it not requried to advance in rank... big deal. Thats their choice... CP gear useless in ToAU??? Last time i checked 90% of CP gear was useless ANYWHERE in the game... before ToAU came out i have over 200,000CP and nothing to spend it on, but instant warp scrolls. CP is USELESS. Theres no REAL reason to go past rank 5 in CP unlessyou just want to see the story. And rank 10 CP time limit is MOOT, because most people dont care abot a Signet on them for more then 10 hours... and not to mention you can buy signet staves for real cheap. CP was useless before... except in a select few cases, and its useless NOW... ofcourse theres a degree of seperation... majority of people are in TOAU. But Newbies are not left out in the cold because high lvl players go back and lvl new jobs ALL THE TIME. JEUNO is STILL highly populated because of it. Your point is invalid. And will Always be so, unless 100% of the player max every single job they have to 75.

12.That doesnt mean jack... I havnt moved my HP either... and THAt is simply because From whitegate i can get to either my HOME NATION, or JUENO in 30 secs... While setting your HP outside of the city, will take you almost an HOUR or more to get back to whitegate... THAT is why people set homepoints in whietgate, its not to SPLIT themselves from newbs. Its because its MUCH easier to get outside Alzabi then it is to get TO Alzabi. Who cares if peopel arent crowded around Jeuno.. the AHs are LINKed... theres no need to be there unless you doing something jeuno specific.

Who CARES if old content is usless..Much of CoP is now useless..... As long as theres new content NO ONE WILL CARE. DO you thing players are shedding tears because 90% of CoP zones are empty at any given time? Whats that have to do with everyone else?who have moved on? Last time i checked , people still get their friends or even pick up people to help get Sea access by going through the CoP content that most people have moved on from.

Your arguments here are not only pointless, but not even addressing any real issues. Like you thinking i NEED Armor piece A to get access to a new area... wtf are you taling about???

Im now convinced that people who argue agaisnt game progression over 4 years of the SAME stuff are 1 or both of 2 things.

1. Are Stupid
2. have everything currently and spent way too much time to get it, and their EPEEN would be CRUSHED if better stuff came out that replaced ALL of the old stuff they spent so long getting.

I couldnt care less about your Epeen issues. Most of CoP zones are empty... and that has NOT hurt FFXI in ONE BIT... because GASP ToAU replaced most of it... OMG such a concpete.... you mean NEW content comepletly REPLACING OLD CONTENT??? OMG

And whether YOu realise it or not.. the MAJORITY of players ARE at the top... like right NOW i did 3 searches... and even if you did this at different times the results woulndt be too different.

/sea all 70-75: 977
/sea all 1-69: 847 (and factor how many of these are high lvl players lvling other jobs)
/sea all 1-20: 233 (and this is high because of teh sheer number of mules)

After 4 years of not being able to break 500k users... worrying about NEW players who dont exist is a waste of time. And no matter what there wont be a SUDDEN bum rush of new players... The fact that older zones are more empty and endgame is becoming overcrowded shows that. No matter what from 1-75 theres ALWAYS something NEW to look forward too.... at 75 that stops... and THAT is why people here are arguing for PROGRESSION now...

Your argument is pointless. Your Whole entire argument of FORCING Vet players to STAY with new players JUST so new players dont feel seperated is STUPID. It ALREADY Existed. NEW players are seperated from Sea, New players are seperated from Sky, NEw players are seperated from Dynamis, NEW players are seperated from Limbus, NEW players are seperated from ENDGAME... and they must work their way through the rest of teh game to reach there. You have no idea what "tierd content" is, because FFXI has it in SPADES. more will NOT hurt the game. The Whole argument is that the other current tiered content still doesnt compare to mobs from 3 years ago, creating a bottle neck that forcing us to rely on OLD CONTENT, and THAT is whats hurting the game. People are arguing FOR structured tierd content to Progress the game so we dont NEED to fight over that OLD stuff. And dont NEED to cock block each other to get what we want, to argue against that is stupidity. And your argument against structure progression is ridiculous. Point blank.

There are PLENTY of monsters and NMs and areas in FFXI that are usless.... Theres PLENTY of GEAR that is now useless and is replaced by SOMETHING ELSE... WHY should that stop at lvl 75??? If my SMNS yingyang robe was replaced by "The Rob of fantastic fantastics" that totally replaces it, and is far superior, WHY and HOW would that hurt me?
If there were MORE difficult mobs in the game, that new gear made easier to defeat HOW the hell would that hurt FFXI??? Its already happened....
When Fafnir was introduced people struggled to beat him, with full alliances, and outside healers... When Kirin was introduced people Stuggled and fought him for HOURS... they introduced NEW gear over time, and those SAME mobs became easier...... Kirin with normal set ups, can be beaten in way less then 1 hr, FAFNIR can be beaten with 6 people in the time it took full alliances to kill it 3 years ago. FAFNIR can be beaten in 15 MINs with like 10 people because of merits and gear. You dont NEED that uber gear to beat them, but it HELPS. WHY SHOULDNT there be newer HNM with the SAME RULES... HNM thats difficult with the current gear now, but become easier over time as new gear replaces the old.

FFXI itslef proves your abanoning new players with NEw content to replace old , null and void.

[Rentwokay]

THIS THREAD IS NOW POTENTIALLY POINTLESS SQUARE MIGHT OF ACTUALLY LISTENED LOL.

Here's your hat. Would you like some mustard?

[Matricide]

THIS THREAD IS NOW POTENTIALLY POINTLESS SQUARE MIGHT OF ACTUALLY LISTENED LOL.

I dunno, it deals with instancing gear we want, but so far nothing about progression. Like I said before they have to give us more than just the gear we've wanted for 3 years if they want us to stay around after we get it.

[MF Perm]

Limbus is not progression, it is parallel. Progression would assume that you need to do A first, then do B. You say that people go back and do Dynamis for new members, but A. I think that is not as common as you say, and B. it is a very limited example. Doing old dynamis is still beneficial for older members the majority of the time, as there is always another piece of AF to get as new jobs are levelled and the likes. Progression would mean that you need to do Bastok > Sandy > Windy > Jeuno > Beauc > Xarc.. and once you had reached Xarc there was no longer anything worth getting from the prior steps.

But it is progression since the 4 cities were released, and you need a boss win from all 4 to enter >> Beau then Beau win to >> Xarc. That's progression my friend, and Dynamis is a good example of it.

And my point of having to go back and clear people for it, is the same thing. The way that progression is designed for Dynamis isn't so that the prior areas become null and void once you reach the upper tiers of Dynamis. Just because other games used the system of A to B, B to C, and so forth and this rendered A and B no longer worthwhile or useful doesn't mean that that is the definition of progression.

The same stands for Limbus and Assault. You need to work your way through to access the better parts of it, but there is still a reason to go back for any of the past ones.

So there is a difference between linear progression and parallel progression.

[solsovly]

Also, I'm sure somewhere there are linkshells who have established a hold on the 3000 pieces returned after a relic is completed. Using that system, for every 6 relics complete you get a 7th for free.

Relic punchcard?

[Kyreth]

Quoteing you made the post WAY too long... so im going to number them instead...

Quoting anything past the initial sentence makes the response too long, so I'll dispense with even that.

Xavier initially definied progression as gear that rendered earlier content obselete. That is, you get gear that allows you to "progress" to other content that is impossible to complete otherwise. This progress is defined in tiers- in EQ, early on, it was the equivalent of AF armor, then what would be comparable to Sky/AF2 gear, and so on, and so forth.

Needing a key item (or four) to do something isn't a tier. You don't need Limbus gear to do ToAU. You don't need Zilart gear to do CoP or ToAU. The only things you -need- to contribute in any of these are items available in the game you installed on your computer at the very start. The three can be done separately of one another. You can finish an entire expansion without having loaded up on the other ones.

That kind of progression eventually (and sooner than you'd think) gets to the point where new players get daunted and old players get tired of doing the same shit to walk newbies through to the stuff THEY want to do, because the only way to have the people to do the new stuff is ramming them through the old shit over and over until they're ready while getting piles of stuff that is literally junk to their "uber" selves. As that kind of progression grows, it takes more and more investment to put a new LS member or even a new player to a point where they can simply play with the rest of the game- and that kills the game.

And WoW is doing much the same thing that ran EQ into the ground. Years back, it'd be you going "EQ big numbers prove me correct"- shortly before FFXI came along and sent them into the cellar. History repeats itself, and I do believe it is with WoW as we type, though it'll be another new game doing the undercutting.

[MF Perm]

Quoteing you made the post WAY too long... so im going to number them instead...

Quoting anything past the initial sentence makes the response too long, so I'll dispense with even that.

Xavier initially definied progression as gear that rendered earlier content obselete.

I understand that argument, but I don't think that making new gear that renders old gear obsolete a problem at all as long as being able to obtain that gear isn't locked into a complete tier system to achieving that goal.

Again, there's a smart way of designing things to avoid those pitfalls. You create it so that new people coming in have the option, while the challenge and fun for the older endgame player is still there. And again comparing other games to this one is not a justifiable way to say it won't work.

*Progress* means moving forward, a sense of accomplishment, scaling uncharted areas. There are several pieces of gear from the past that are outdated and no longer used that used to be king shit. O-hat anyone?

They've done it for accessory pieces, it's time to move on to body pieces and weapons. It really won't ruin the game at all.

[Siatdiat]

Quoteing you made the post WAY too long... so im going to number them instead...

Quoting anything past the initial sentence makes the response too long, so I'll dispense with even that.

Xavier initially definied progression as gear that rendered earlier content obselete. That is, you get gear that allows you to "progress" to other content that is impossible to complete otherwise. This progress is defined in tiers- in EQ, early on, it was the equivalent of AF armor, then what would be comparable to Sky/AF2 gear, and so on, and so forth.

Needing a key item (or four) to do something isn't a tier. You don't need Limbus gear to do ToAU. You don't need Zilart gear to do CoP or ToAU. The only things you -need- to contribute in any of these are items available in the game you installed on your computer at the very start. The three can be done separately of one another. You can finish an entire expansion without having loaded up on the other ones.

That kind of progression eventually (and sooner than you'd think) gets to the point where new players get daunted and old players get tired of doing the same shit to walk newbies through to the stuff THEY want to do, because the only way to have the people to do the new stuff is ramming them through the old shit over and over until they're ready while getting piles of stuff that is literally junk to their "uber" selves. As that kind of progression grows, it takes more and more investment to put a new LS member or even a new player to a point where they can simply play with the rest of the game- and that kills the game.

And WoW is doing much the same thing that ran EQ into the ground. Years back, it'd be you going "EQ big numbers prove me correct"- shortly before FFXI came along and sent them into the cellar. History repeats itself, and I do believe it is with WoW as we type, though it'll be another new game doing the undercutting.

TBC evened everything out. Everyone was basically at ground zero when the expansion came out. Noone has to run anyone through any old content, its a whole new endgame. Im sure in the next 2 years, the people who put the effort in will pull ahead of everyone, and there "might" be some of the problems youve mentioned. Then Im willing to be youll see another expansion that will once again level the playing field. Noone is left in the cold. If any game leaves people in the cold its ffxi with its low drop rates, every ls ive ever known of puts new people at the back of a long line for drops, and people who are established will be able to lot gear for all 5 75 jobs if they want over new players. In a progression based game, those new players will be rewarded for attending events, and get that gear because it will actually make a difference to their dps/tanking/healing, and allow the whole group to work towards harder content. Keep talking about EQ all you want man, that really has shit all to do with the matter at hand. This news about the update in ffxi could be the beginning of creating a bit of progression based gameplay, there wont be any new players unless they put out ffxi on a new console, the people you think of as new players are the people who use ffxi as a hang out/chat room, and they wont give a shit about any of this. I think the real daunting thing would be if I was actually just hitting 75 on my first job and had the current lay out of endgame activities to choose from, and if my job had reasons to go to every event, id think "fuck this shit, I have things to do like eat/sleep/work" and just quit. Tell me which endgame is truly daunting?

In conclusion, your an idiot.