Heated Endgame Discussion

[Ninjiz]

I dont care who defined WHAT... doesnt make it accurate... "progression" cannot be pigeon holed to mean ONE thing ONLY.

And you clearly need to learn how tiers work... Your defenition about tier only being gear you MUST have to access event 2 is WRONG. the end...

Tier means you must do ONE thing before you can do the NEXT.

JUST like in tournaments... you must ADVANCE your way to the top, by clearing things on your way up to win. LIMBUS, ASSAULT, and DYNAMIS, SKY GODS, SEA GODS and even MISSIONS are tier based content. The difference between FFXI and EQ is that in FFXI, the tier has a CAP, before you must START OVER. And since you have SO many people who need things, you have reason to do it all over again. Just like FAME needed to do quests is tier based content. you MUST advance in something ELSE before you can even attempt the NEXT thing....its LAYERS of content on top of each other.

1. one of a series of rows or ranks rising one behind or above another, as of seats in an amphitheater, boxes in a theater, guns in a man-of-war, or oars in an ancient galley.
2. one of a number of galleries, as in a theater.
3. a layer; level; stratum: The wedding cake had six tiers. All three tiers of the firm's management now report to one director.
4. Australian. a mountain range.
–verb (used with object)
5. to arrange in tiers.
–verb (used without object)
6. to rise in tiers.
7. one of two or more layers one atop another; "tier upon tier of huge casks"; "a three-tier wedding cake"
8. To arrange (something) into or rise in tiers: tier a wedding cake; balconies that tier upward.

see layer

You are WRONG.... the END... its NOT about **** GEAR... get that through your thick skull.... JUST because EQ did that... doesnt DEFINE the MEANING of tier. EQ didnt event that word....

The reason we are bringing up TIER is because TIERd content would be a BETTER alternative to the Open world bottle neck at CAMPS and make almost ALL the palyer base happy. And We brought up PROGRESSION because the game need to move FORWARD, it would be BETTER then having us soley rely on content thats 3 years OLD, and would give people who have been PLAYINg for that amount of time, NEW things to strive for.....

People like you argued against adding new jobs... im glad SE didnt listen, and listened to the majority of players who wanted new jobs, and THAT was one of the reasons they added Blue mages...

OLD players walk NEW players through things ALL the damn time in FFXI... New players are not in desperate need and DYING , because none are availible to help them along. There IS no NEW super influx of new players in FFXI... so your point is rendered POINTLESS.

Im NOT SAYING use GEAR as the REQUIRED TIER..... but guess WHAT??? If i WAS...whats wrong with adding a FEW HNM that are very powerful for the hardcore players..that requires top of the line gear to defeat??? The ENTIRE GAME ISNT centered around that... a few Challenging HNM that required top of the line gear, and great merits would not BREAK ffxi. It would give teh Hardcore players who DO have thsoe things something NEW and challenging to do. Whether you like it or not there ARE two games in FFXI, JUST like tehre are two games in WOW. Lvling up to max lvl, and ENDGAME. They are both different experiences. Even if i WAS talking about gear tiered content....Whats the difference between a dropped CHIP and a dropepd sword??? NOTHING, they are BOTH "items" required to get to the next point. A few HNM here and there at END GAME lvl content for players who have top of the line gear (and there are so many) should have things to do to, and hard challenging mobs to fight.

The REASON why people mentioned adding content that needed top gear to beat, was because of the fear that adding more powerful gear to replace years old gear woudl make ALL the mobs to easy, and would become boring. They SUGGESTED that as a means to combat that. New advanced lvl content that was not easy at all, unless you had great gear. ADDINg New , bigger and badder HNM MOBs to counter act the addition of better gear. Since theres a LVL cap.... there woudl have to be a way to add better things instead of using lvl to measure power. DONT get THIS suggestion CONFUSED with progression, and tiers.... Adding new powerful equipment, and newer more powerful mobs with the existance of a lvl cap, exactly 100% tier based content. Even if it WAS like that.... wtf is stopping allaince from having members who DONT have teh best gear to join them??? NO ONE is saying you need THIS gear to even BE in teh damn zone....the more you try to argue that the more stupid your argument becomes. People Do that even NOW... how many LS' have newer members at evenets with less than spectacular gear??? A lot. You are arguing something most of us are not even talking about right now.... but not giving NEW content in years of game time is STUPID. There HAS to be new content to replace old content, or youll LOSE your player base anyway when they become bored.

And dont give me that BS about FFXI being the reason EQ went under. A vast majority of people i knew who played EQ never even touched FFXI. A number of MMORPGs came out since then and people went to different ones. JUST like FFXI lost a LOT of players to WOW ,and WOW is able to get the number that SE WISHES it could get. Part of EQs fall was when Sony tried to move to EQ2 which many EQ fans thought wasnt as good. And besides.. how many years did EQ exist??? Its natural that over such a long period of time things would advance teh genre and people would jump ship. WoW and EQ are hardly comparible. WOW wont be dying anytime soon. Because WOW doesnt force ANYONE to go through OLD content. When it replaces old content EVERYONE still has access to it. just because EQ screwed up, and based your whole argument on a game released in 1999, despite it STILL having a large player base of about 300,000-400,000. It didnt keep its player base by ignoring them and not CONSTANTLY adding new content to replace old content.

But WOW is different... TBC evened out the field, and everyone had access to the same stuff. Again your fears are pointless and unproven....and the more you argue BULLshit reasons while the game should STILL rely on content from 3 years ago, the more stupid you sound, and the more desperate you sound to hold onto your damn Epeen, because you are too damn afraid of the thought of having all that gear replaced. Even if totally new gear came and replaced everything... new players would be able to get access to the NEW gear too... most of CoP zones are a WASTELAND..... people moved on... thats teh way it SHOULD be... there should be a steady flow of content and NEW areas to replace the old... to keep your PLAYERBASE happy... stop being so stupid.

[Quicklet]

Items also cause mudflation- and the combined effect actually erodes interest in the game. People do their best to skip large chunks of content, leaving those newer players in the lurch while an ever decreasing core of older players compress inwards, simultaneously demanding more endgame as they erode the process that allows the game to sustain itself- the older content that made those players in the first place.

You complain about n00bs, and then powerlevel people new and old to the "good stuff" at higher levels. Then you wonder why they don't find anything worth doing (cause they never learned how) and watch them quit or buy gil to get their shinies, instead of actually, y'know doing stuff.

The higher the summit reaches, the fewer the people that are going to survive and the more daunting it gets for new players to even try. That's why content needs to be broader, rather than a linear progression upwards.

Yeah I didn't mean to exclude items out of the mudflation equation, but it seemed like AA was the bigger "gap-widening" issue between new and old players in EQ, because while you can usually get over the gear hump with help from older players, there was no way to get over the AA gap without spending months of hardcore grouping. It would be like if the top players in FFXI had 1000 merits worth of abilities (for one job) and any new players hitting LV75 would have to spend months of exping just to be competitive (this assumes that new content would have been built around requiring merited upgrades).

Oddly enough, this is not always the case. The first MMORPG I played, Gemstone ended up not only keeping it's population but transitioned it through an entirely new version (going from GS3 to GS4) in the same game world. A game can even grow modestly after it's initial rush, as long as that game isn't rendered such a hideous trip from bottom to top as to be incomprehensible to a new player- and old content is picked up, brushed off and worked on from time to time. Maybe it's a new race or starting city or even continent. Perhaps it's actually progressing the static timeline in a single jump-say, reawakening the beastman wars. Or altering an old area and the quests connected to it. Taking items that are utterly un-used and remaking them with new additions to the game that have happened since. There are plenty of options to spread a game further without making it daunting to go top to bottom.

Upwards eventually ends up choking from lack of air and distance. Outwards is infinitely preferable.

I played GS3 for a while, don't know how their development has turned out for a while, but I did play DR (Dragonrealms) for a much longer period and, well, while it may have catered to the more MUD-social crowd, in terms of adding on new content they have left a lot to be desired. The history of DR for the past few years has mainly been system recodings with little content additions here and there but nothing new to actual advancement (and for those who might not know, leveling in DR consisted of basically continually skilling up forever, but your rate of skilling up was limited based on time and your stats, so it was an even worse grind than FFXI).

IMO GS4/DR are old-era games that cater to different crowds than the graphical, 3D MMO, and the entire notions of endgame/progression really are irrelevant to a lot of the people who play those. It's just my impression, but it's just a different atmosphere than the more recent MMOs.

[Jer]

The problem you have with your shift key is distracting.

[Xavier]

Xavier initially definied progression as gear that rendered earlier content obselete. That is, you get gear that allows you to "progress" to other content that is impossible to complete otherwise.

Bull, fucking, shit.

Go back and read before you post again. You're a broken record at this point.

And WoW is doing much the same thing that ran EQ into the ground. Years back, it'd be you going "EQ big numbers prove me correct"- shortly before FFXI came along and sent them into the cellar. History repeats itself, and I do believe it is with WoW as we type, though it'll be another new game doing the undercutting.

If you ignore the fact that EQ was like 7 years old by that time, and the sequel had already been announced, sure.

And the kind of success WoW is having with its subscriptions completely rapes anything EQ ever got close to.

[Khalil]

The problem you have with your shift key is distracting.

^ Agreed with everything he said. Every time I try and read his post, I get side-tracked by the CAPS.

[Ninjiz]

then you are distracted far too easily...

[Khalil]

then you are distracted far too easily...

Not exactly, it's just your flow of writing isn't exactly considered a flow, so to speak.

[Ninjiz]

perhaps

its usally when im typing in a non serious setting (forums) and i want to put a LOT (lol) of emphasis on a particular word without doing it with stopping to put in html tags lazy i know :wink:

[MF Perm]

perhaps

its usally when im typing in a non serious setting (forums) and i want to put a LOT (lol) of emphasis on a particular word without doing it with stopping to put in html tags lazy i know :wink:

I just call someone a faggot and usually get a full read.

[Kyreth]

Xavier initially definied progression as gear that rendered earlier content obselete. That is, you get gear that allows you to "progress" to other content that is impossible to complete otherwise.

Bull, fucking, shit.

Go back and read before you post again. You're a broken record at this point.

Because you say so?

Its very easy to recycle the exact same content over and over, increasing the level of the mob and the stats on his gear by a few points.

I don't understand why people would rather fight the same mobs, for the same gear, instead of new mobs, for marginally better gear. You compensate by simply raising the mobs level to the point where people without the gear from the previous tier of HNMs can't effectively damage it.

If your entire argument for why FFXI can never have progression is because a DRK w/ a Kraken Club is capable of dealing a lot of damage at once, it isn't much of an argument at all. A 30 second patch could change that.

Edit the quote already, then. The later example still says something different from your initial statement. One section says "Part of a solution via progression is boosting mobs so high you have to gear up on the prior ones to be able to deal damage."

The later part of the same post (after the quoted section) defines it in a more gradual sense, with marginal increases simply making it easier to defeat monsters, as opposed to making monsters that are off the scale. The first I think is reasonable, the second too much.

And WoW is doing much the same thing that ran EQ into the ground. Years back, it'd be you going "EQ big numbers prove me correct"- shortly before FFXI came along and sent them into the cellar. History repeats itself, and I do believe it is with WoW as we type, though it'll be another new game doing the undercutting.

If you ignore the fact that EQ was like 7 years old by that time, and the sequel had already been announced, sure.

And the kind of success WoW is having with its subscriptions completely rapes anything EQ ever got close to.

In market share? EQ once dominated the market the same way WoW does now. WoW -is- the most successful game on the market, but we wouldn't be sitting here talking about FFXI if it was a perfect one.

EQ took players through a rapid spiral of endgame progression and created a playerbase separated by long grinds of gear to get more gear to proceed on still more gear. Then it crashed and burned- not just from FFXI, but a good amount of competition and creating a sequel that split it's remaining playerbase for good measure- many of which were looking for a "clean world" to start over in thanks to precisely that kind of "progression". WoW isn't anywhere near that spread yet- but I think it's heading in the same direction.

Call me an idiot for not wanting to repeat EQ's mistakes. Please.

[MF Perm]

WoW -is- the most successful game on the market, but we wouldn't be sitting here talking about FFXI if it was a perfect one.

Preference does not perfection make.

[Siatdiat]

Call me an idiot for not wanting to repeat EQ's mistakes. Please.

Your an idiot for not knowing what your talking about. You cant really compare anything to WoW unless youve played it. Go ahead and compare ffxi and eq is fine, since you have knowledge of those things. But talking about things you dont know about just makes you look dumb.

[Jeryhn]

Your an idiot for not knowing what your talking about.

This makes me chuckle.

Anyway, continue.

[Lordwafik]

perhaps

its usally when im typing in a non serious setting (forums) and i want to put a LOT (lol) of emphasis on a particular word without doing it with stopping to put in html tags lazy i know :wink:

You DO know that you don't HAVE to use caps to make a point?

You do know that you don't have to use caps to make a point?

You do know that you don't have to use caps to make a point?

Reading your posts is like watching the Tourettes guy.

BOB SAGET

[Khamsin]

perhaps

its usally when im typing in a non serious setting (forums) and i want to put a LOT (lol) of emphasis on a particular word without doing it with stopping to put in html tags lazy i know :wink:

You DO know that you don't HAVE to use caps to make a point?

You do know that you don't have to use caps to make a point?

You do know that you don't have to use caps to make a point?

Reading your posts is like watching the Tourettes guy.

BOB SAGET

He doesn't have to, but maybe he didn't want to stop to put in html chicken tags.

[Ninjiz]

WoW -is- the most successful game on the market, but we wouldn't be sitting here talking about FFXI if it was a perfect one.

Preference does not perfection make.

EXACTLY.... recognizing that some elements work really well, and keep your player base happy doesnt mean the entire package is perfection. Youre a broken record at this point like someone else said.

Rambling bs about nothing

Luckily no one is holdig a gun to your head forcing you to read a few capped words HERE AND THERE. If reading a few cap letters here and there is too much for you, then go get your dyslexia checked out, cause i honestly dont care what reading difficulty you have. The only time something is hard to read is if the entire paragraph is all caps. I swear reading your posts bitching about dumb stuff is like being in a room full of Star trek fans. Its very:
http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/2...jeffalblr8.jpg

And the ironic part is... "I" have NO problem reading all three of your sentences that say the same thing, at the same exact speed, without distraction. go figure...

[Lordwafik]

lolbanned

[Ninjiz]

lolbanned

lolproxy

But if you want to ban me over something like that... then it says a lot about you. And i wouldnt lose sleep over it.

[Kazen]

No it just says your retarded, lol.

[Lordwafik]

lolbanned

lolproxy

But if you want to ban me over something like that... then it says a lot about you. And i wouldnt lose sleep over it.

Ya it says alot about me, it says I want to socialize with people who aren't having spasm attacks when talking to me.

If you wanna come back on proxies, that says more about you craving attention than it does about me wanting morons off this board.