Salvage Points System

[Ryushii]

The fact that the drop isn't suddenly usable isn't something that changes depending on your lotting system lol. I may just be stupid, but I don't honestly see the connection. And Suiram, I don't see why it would matter if someone ran with two groups. Unlike dynamis, which can ONLY be done twice a week, and HNMs, which ONLY pop at specific times, Salvage is free in that you can basically do as many runs a week as you have time for. I don't honestly care that someone runs with multiple groups as long as I don't find that person missing my runs because he doesn't have enough AP.

Also, as I've said before, a points system would get more items into the hands of those who deserve them most. Using pick-up group rules like "put your set in your bazaar comment" is ridiculous and pointless, and offers nothing for older members. Also, I don't dislike leader-picked rewards, but I feel that these drops are common enough, unlike sea/HNM, that it shouldn't be a momentous occasion when one drops. Also, the drops come in a very hectic time in the middle of runs where all the leaders are very busy, so not only would it be inconvinient to discuss who gets to lot in the middle of the run, but the discission would also be rushed and it could create unecessary drama in the middle of a highly frenzied time.

Also, I will be changing my system to allow more than one set; I wasn't sure if the NPC allowed you to do only one set a time or not.

Lastly, I have a question. Has anyone actually read my first post, or did you all just read the title and decided to reply? From the responses I've recieved, it seems like the answer is no, but I would love some criticism on not just the fact that I use a points system, but also on the arrangement of the system so far. Thank you all for your input thus far :D

[Keider]

I feel that these drops are common enough, unlike sea/HNM, that it shouldn't be a momentous occasion when one drops.

I wish

1/19 on any 35 gear so far

[safer]

here is how my runs work.. i feel they're fair and are focused on getting people what they want ASAP

basically each members chooses 3 items they would like to upgrade..
ex. for me i chose #1 skadi feet #2 marduks feet #3 skadi legs... then i pick a general set to lot for incase anything goes freelot... in my case i chose skadi cause i want the whole set eventually...

now everyone does the same... basically people were asked in private which 3 items they would like.. so that no one based their decisions on what other people chose...

and thats it.. you get to lot an item if you ranked yourself the highest priority on that item... the only exception to the rule is if someone is 2/3 on an item.. they get the 3rd piece regardless (unless 2 people are 2/3 and then they both lot the 3rd piece)

example.. me and another person both ranked skadi feet first.. we both lot until we get each of the 3 pieces.. someone who ranked skadi feet #2 gets to lot after us (on any piece, either 15/25/35)

minimum number of runs to attend before lotting = 3 .. only cause recently people started to join my runs

this method also helps in that it lets me see which items people want, and lets me focus runs based on that... for example no one wants morrigans feet / skadi hands from my group... so unless those mobs that drop those items are in our way.. we wont actively go for them...

likewise alot of people in my group want usukane legs and feet... so im gonna try to do alot of runs that involve those drops

this is much different than dynamis in that you cant jus go into any zone and randomly farm... you have to be focused in your runs and set goals you want to achieve......

also.. typically i wont tell my group which zone we're doing in advance, or which target NM we're going for cause i dont want people not showing up for NMs that dont drop stuff they want... only time i announce which run will be if we're doing a boss and people need to plan accordingly...

edit: about your initial post... we're saying that a point system wont work for salvage, and we're giving you ideas on what works for us

[Chalis]

http://www.moofah.com/auronku/lbsalvage.htm

This is how i set up my Salvage group's drop's. goes by 1st attendence and 2nd Ranking. work's out really well no confusion on who get's what. anything that by some chance would not be on someone's who is there's prio just get free loted.

[Ryushii]

Yeah, yours is like exactly the same as mine Chalis, except I didn't see the mention of a 2/3 rule or any sort of attendence cut off.

Safer, the thing is, all I have seen is "points systems don't work." That's it, that's all people have put. No "points system don't work because of (this), or this other system is better because of (that)." Just a bunch of people saying points system don't work for salvage, and then giving me examples of their own system, many of whom have some serious flaws.

For instance, your own system fails to reward members who have been there longer than 3 runs. As it is right now, any member able to lot has essentially the same priority, so if a person on their 4th run and a person on their 100th were to want the same thing, then they would both have equal priority. Also, you have made it so there is virtually no way to attain #2 priority items for those who have attended those extra runs and recieved their #1s before others. Not only that, but a new member in the group could come in, and 3 runs later, be able to outlot the entire group. If you don't make accomidations for the people that are really dedicated and make a point to show high attendence then your LS is destined to fail. Plain and simple. I don't mean to sound do rude in saying this, but I haven't really seen any good arguments, or altenatives, to a points system. Any ideas?

[divisortheory]

For instance, your own system fails to reward members who have been there longer than 3 runs.

If your shell is constantly taking on new members and doesn't have the same core group of people every time, then with all do respect I don't think you'll get very far in Salvage anyway.

Not only that, but a new member in the group could come in, and 3 runs later, be able to outlot the entire group.

Big deal? The only thing hard to get is the 35 pieces, and if/when you set up runs for 35 pieces, a person should already be 2/3 anyway otherwise you're wasting time.

[NynJa]

Not only that, but a new member in the group could come in, and 3 runs later, be able to outlot the entire group.

Big deal? The only thing hard to get is the 35 pieces, and if/when you set up runs for 35 pieces, a person should already be 2/3 anyway otherwise you're wasting time.

Depends what area you're going for...some of the 15's in other areas are from pop NM's (though 100% drop, its still worth mentionning)

[Ryushii]

For instance, your own system fails to reward members who have been there longer than 3 runs.

If your shell is constantly taking on new members and doesn't have the same core group of people every time, then with all do respect I don't think you'll get very far in Salvage anyway.

[quote:7d88b]Not only that, but a new member in the group could come in, and 3 runs later, be able to outlot the entire group.

Big deal? The only thing hard to get is the 35 pieces, and if/when you set up runs for 35 pieces, a person should already be 2/3 anyway otherwise you're wasting time.[/quote:7d88b]

There still is the fact that you are giving the same prio to a person who comes to like 1/4 of the runs as a person who comes to 3/4 of them. Also, there is a huge difference between taking in new members all the time and getting new people (generally friends of those in the group) in the ls.

It seems as though everyone here is in agreement that the 2/3 rule is a great idea, myself included. However, you are missing the point. The 2/3 rule doesn't change the fact that a new person could come in, get lucky, and walk away with pieces that older members deserve much more faster than the older members get it. I know I wouldn't want some new RDM coming in and snagging up the pieces for Morrigan Robe out of sheer luck before me.

Also, I haven't actually seen any opinions on my system itself. Nothing saying why it would fail, just some people saying they don't like points systems really. Would anyone mind adressing this please?

[Chalis]

Well my entire group is based out of my HNM ls that has been together for 3 year's so if some ppl get a few thing's sooner than they should it's not a real big deal. but yes if a just combined group of ppl who have not been workin together for some time like my own i could see there be some reasoning in letting some ppl's prio 2 overwrite some ppl with lower attendence's prio 1 and so on.

my limbus group we use the same set up of attendence then ranking. what i did do with my limbus group after so long cause of ppl leaving or quiting the game and we had to bring on new ppl was say i have 50 run's and my prio 2 is homam leg's and we get a new person who prio 1's homam legs we just made a rule that they had to have 1/2 of my run's so they would need to get 25 befour they could out lot me. for my 3rd compaired to there 1st it was they needed 1/3 of my run's and so on all the way up to my 10th ranked piece.

not saying point system's dont work at all but ive always liked the ranking system alot better drop's get more spread out. and give's new ppl to the group more of a reason to show up.

[fantasticdan]

The 2/3 rule doesn't change the fact that a new person could come in, get lucky, and walk away with pieces that older members deserve much more faster than the older members get it.

To get all 3 components for a piece, they can't just "walk in and out of the LS", they would probably have been going with you for monthes.

The real deal is, salvage isn't some kind of progressive event, like getting to proto-omega/ultima in limbus, or like sky. Everyone pays the 2k AP to enter for every single run, everyone should have a fair shot at the gear set they choose. By using some kind of point system, you are really just trying to screw over new members and minimize the number of people lotting against you and your buddies.

what i did do with my limbus group after so long cause of ppl leaving or quiting the game and we had to bring on new ppl was say i have 50 run's and my prio 2 is homam leg's and we get a new person who prio 1's homam legs we just made a rule that they had to have 1/2 of my run's so they would need to get 25 befour they could out lot me. for my 3rd compaired to there 1st it was they needed 1/3 of my run's and so on all the way up to my 10th ranked piece.

Wow, making up rules on the fly to prevent newer members from having a fair shot at gear, very cool.

[Ryushii]

The 2/3 rule doesn't change the fact that a new person could come in, get lucky, and walk away with pieces that older members deserve much more faster than the older members get it.

To get all 3 components for a piece, they can't just "walk in and out of the LS", they would probably have been going with you for monthes.

The real deal is, salvage isn't some kind of progressive event, like getting to proto-omega/ultima in limbus, or like sky. Everyone pays the 2k AP to enter for every single run, everyone should have a fair shot at the gear set they choose. By using some kind of point system, you are really just trying to screw over new members and minimize the number of people lotting against you and your buddies.

what i did do with my limbus group after so long cause of ppl leaving or quiting the game and we had to bring on new ppl was say i have 50 run's and my prio 2 is homam leg's and we get a new person who prio 1's homam legs we just made a rule that they had to have 1/2 of my run's so they would need to get 25 befour they could out lot me. for my 3rd compaired to there 1st it was they needed 1/3 of my run's and so on all the way up to my 10th ranked piece.

Wow, making up rules on the fly to prevent newer members from having a fair shot at gear, very cool.

First, you could easily get a few peices from one shell, then go to another, if you have a better shot at items the longer you stay then there is more incentive to stay.

Also, I don't understand your reference to sky/limbus. Everyone pays 50k each limbus entrance, and yeah, you get coins and all, but in the end you have half the group going for the same item. Assuming that in Salvage you have like 15 ppl/run on average, that's 3 per set, and chances are all three won't have the same priority levels set for the pieces. The real point of this is to reward those who have been in the LS for a long time. I hate when new people expect to join a LS and then suddenly get everything. That is not how this game works. Just because everyone spends AP to enter doesn't mean that things should be fair: different amounts of effort and attendence deserve different amounts of rewards. This isn't Communism (lol). It's not "I set up this LS and attend everyone, therefore we all have an equal shot at getting everything." Me and my buddies (aka the people spending all this time setting up and researching this stuff, and also the ones spending the msot xp and AP) do deserve items first, because we are the ones who have put in all the effort. So yes, I do expect first dibs, and rightly so.

Also, ty for the more specific reasons why you think points systems aren't good. Now if only someone would actually say something about my points system specifically...or I don't know, maybe actually read it?

[divisortheory]

Also, ty for the more specific reasons why you think points systems aren't good. Now if only someone would actually say something about my points system specifically...or I don't know, maybe actually read it?

If people feel that points systems fail for Salvage, what will reading the fine print and detail accomplish? They fail for Salvage. People have explained why they fail for Salvage. They've gone over multiple specific reasons why they fail for Salvage. Obviously what you're looking for is someone who is a big points system fan to come back you up and refine your system, but clearly there's no such people here.

[fantasticdan]

Also, I don't understand your reference to sky/limbus. Everyone pays 50k each limbus entrance, and yeah, you get coins and all, but in the end you have half the group going for the same item. Assuming that in Salvage you have like 15 ppl/run on average, that's 3 per set, and chances are all three won't have the same priority levels set for the pieces.

I didn't say limbus in general, I said proto-omega/ultima, for example, someone joining the LS right before a megaboss run and lotting everything wouldn't be fair, of coarse everyone should have the same shot at AF+1 materials and coins. Salvage has no megaboss, each run is seperate and has no relation to another with the exception of the card NMs.

Me and my buddies (aka the people spending all this time setting up and researching this stuff, and also the ones spending the msot xp and AP) do deserve items first, because we are the ones who have put in all the effort. So yes, I do expect first dibs, and rightly so.

So why don't you tell your LS just that, that you and your buddies have priority over them for everything, and stop trying to smokescreen with some bullshit points system.

[NynJa]

Also, ty for the more specific reasons why you think points systems aren't good. Now if only someone would actually say something about my points system specifically...or I don't know, maybe actually read it?

If people feel that points systems fail for Salvage, what will reading the fine print and detail accomplish? They fail for Salvage. People have explained why they fail for Salvage. They've gone over multiple specific reasons why they fail for Salvage. Obviously what you're looking for is someone who is a big points system fan to come back you up and refine your system, but clearly there's no such people here.

I am a big points system fan...and even I say you cant make a point system for Salvage.

[safer]

oops didnt see additions to this thread.. was marked read for some reason =<

anyways...

first off, all the people attending my salvage runs are linkshell mates, so we're already close together... i dont have to worry about someone lotting stuff then running away... where are they gonna go? i'll see them at the next event and it'd be pretty embarressing for them imo lol.... also i dont force people to come to salvage, so everyone is there because they want to get gears and want other people to get gears [although i do have to nag people to get assaults done >o ]

so i'd have to say, for a non-points system to work (in general) there must be some level of trust among members.. i think we can all agree on that...

the problem that ive tried to steer clear from that ive seen over and over with dynamis linkshells is that new members are always screwed over compared to older members in a seniority system (aka points system, cause thats what it is- keeping everything equal, older members will have more points than newer members always)

also i think you misunderstood my priority system.. i'll state it more clear cause i was just giving a basic idea behind it...

when someone ranks their items as #1, 2, 3 .... they can lot on all those at the same time as long as no one else is there who ranked themselves higher on a certain piece...

say in SilverSeas we're going after Gyroscopic gear and it drops lv35skadi hands and lv15marduk hands.... player A is #1skadi hands and #2marduk hands.. and player B is #1 w/e #2skadi hands #3 marduk hands... then player A will be lotting both items that drop cause he's listed himself as the top priority... remember people were asked in private what they wanted, so it isnt a matter of intentionally putting yourself on a higher tier than someone else

now my co-leader did bring up an idea that if people were to join much later, that instead of having rank #1,2,3 items.. they'd have #2,3,4 items.. thus sort of reaching a balance between seniority and 'not screwing over new members' --but thats for if we decide to add people in much much later

(the 3 run rule was put in cause only recently others have expressed some sort of interest, and we've only done 10 runs total of salvage, in the long run, the difference between our attendance will be like 8 runs... not something i would consider to penalize someone for lotting an item)

however i dont really plan on adding more people to my runs.. people who have an interest in salvage had enough time to do the missions and join us... we have a pretty strong core group of about 8-9 people, and some additional people who can only attend certain days cause of other commitments and im happy with that...

i didnt initially mean to say that your idea was stupid (sorry if you took it as such), i jus wanted to offer an example of how a non-points system would work because as many people here posted... a points system doesnt seem to fair well with the nature of salvage

in the end, go with whatever your group decides on and thinks is fair for their circumstances

(blah long post, sorry =/ )

edit: i'd like to add that i have discussed with my co-leader regarding efforts put in with regards to research / organizing everything / leading runs / etc... and frankly... idc about that... im doin this voluntarily because i see salvage as a new adventure and its fun for me.... i would never think of using that to put myself higher up than my friends so that i can get all the phat loot first before them... hell if i wanted i could solely focus on the NMs I want until i finished my gears but that'd jus be poor leadership

[Wulfgang]

When did lotting become rocket science.

Seacom:
1) Specific item and set you want (i.e. Skadi Feet)
2) General set you'd like to upgrade (i.e. Ares's)

#1 allows for people who are truly aiming for one piece (like PLDs on Ares's Body) to have the nod over those WAR/DRG/etc who are just looking to accumulate Ares's pieces. #2 just is pretty standard, if an Ares's Feet drops and no one has it as #1, then anyone with Ares's in #2 can lot. I will also intervene if someone doesn't deserve a piece or is new.

Basically a hybrid seacom + I point you lot system, works fine, no one complains.

[Not Kuno]

I do my salvages like this:

Theres an attendance. My runs arn't an ls event so we get random people each time with a few core members. Whoever is at the top gets to upgrade whatever they want and we go for that. Then when they get whatever next person gets runs dedicated to them. Then next etc etc.

[Almalexia]

Why would you need a new shell for Salvage? Only 18 people can enter.

[Suiram]

I run a Thursday group that goes for the boss. The zones are on a rotation. It was originally supposed to be a set group with the occasional fill-in when someone couldn't make it, but in practice we've ended up with some 'set members' who've been to half the runs as some fill-ins, but I think soon I'll drop some of them and make the fill-in people set members. Anyhow, everyone picks 1 piece per equip slot, but it doesn't all have to be from the same set. You can change your choice for a piece up until the point where you've lotted something in that slot (including random lvl15 drops in Bhaflau, etc). Fill-in participants put their choices in search comment. So when something drops, it looks like this:

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/1...examplesc4.jpg

I made a macro for each set the "fulltime" members (as you can see, half of them aren't there though lol), and then check search comments for what guests also happened to put that piece in comment. The idea in the future, especially once farming the zones is 100% known, is to have 2 boss runs like this per week, with people splitting into smaller farming groups for 35 pieces on other days to complete sets they got the 25 pieces for.

[Ryushii]

Starting from the most recent...

Limbus also can only support 18 members at a time, btw, and I have seen plenty of great Limbus only shells. Keep in mind that my shell doesn't run with any sort of "core" group. We run 2-3 times a week atm, possibly even more times in the future depending on how full we get. Also, the reason why I started my own LS is because minimal people in my shell actually care about Salvage. I believe there are only like 5-6 people from my actual linkshell in my Salvage LS, so its not like I have the option to make a tight core group like most of you guys.

Wulf, your system gives people on their first run equal prio to someone on their 100th (a phrase I've repeated in like every single one of my replies). It is stupid to make a Salvage LS and then use pick-up group lotting rules.

Safer, it seems like your system really works for your situation, and I can tell that. But 90% of my LS doesn't know each other. Sure, there are groups of people from the same LS here and there, but think of it as more of a dynamis shell with people from various places in it. So, as you beautifully said, "for a non-points system to work (in general) there must be some level of trust among members.. i think we can all agree on that..." Also, I am trying to adjust my system so that the older members do have an advantage over the newer members (which is how it should be), but not in such a way as drastically as in Dynamis.

NynJa, I honestly haven't seen any better alternatives, and very few decent reasons for why a points system doesn't work.

Fantasticdan, I'm not trying to smokescreen anything. I'm trying to come up with a system that rewards people for the amount of effort they put in and makes them want to put in that effort. Honestly, atm any member that attends regularly would probably be able to outlot me lol.

Divisortheory, let me summarize the arguments I have seen against a points system:
1. Everyone pays 2k AP therefore they all deserve equal lotting prio
2. Using a point system only helps the old members and screws over the new ones
3. Salvage isn't a progressive event like Limbus
4. Items don't drop and are suddenly useful (like in Dynamis)
5. We don't like points systems.

Now my rebuttals:
1. So what? Everyone pays to enter any other event. Everyone pays the 50k gil to enter Limbus, or the gil to enter Dynamis (in non-sponsored LSes), or the items to use in any end game area (like RR, etc), and everyoen loses xp together. That doesn't mean that someone who has just started should be able to lot alongside someone who has done 50 times the runs. And yeah, sure you can say that all members would also get coins or materials or currency, but it isn't like it is difficult to be on the highest priority for an item in Salvage either.
2. To me, this an argument for the system. Why should a new person expect to be able to come into a LS, and on their first run get a drop? Heck, in my system theres actually alot better chance of that happening than in sky/HNM/limbus/anything else. And also, any other good system for an LS like this would and should have the same effect. The oh-so-famous "I point at you and you lot" system does the same thing. You can't make an effective system for the type of LS I have without aiming to accomplish this.
3. Why should this even matter? Attending more runs means you have helped more people get items, therefore you have still contributed more to the success of the group than a new person. Just because you haven't gotten chips or stones or whatever doesn't mean anything for how lots should be distributed.
4. They can also drop on your first time in there. They don't come from a God fight that you have to collect stones for or a Ultima/Omega fight that you have to collect chips for, so it takes a significantly shorter time to recieve an item, even if it isn't immediately useful, it puts you essentially 1/2 of the way there (because I too plan on focusing runs for people to get their 2/3s done). Not only that, but these pieces of equipment are great and this area is a ton of fun. Also, beware when comparing this zone to dynamis. In salvage, there are on average about 15 people to lot against, and chances are only 1/5 of them will be wanting each item (which, when icnluding yourself in the three, means you need to be on a higher priority than 2 other people). In Dynamis there are up to 60.
5. Then give me a system that would work better for my situation.

Thanks again for the comments, I've seen some good idea I am going to try to implement. Keep 'em coming. Still would be great if someone actually read my system, seen alot of comments that are more reflected to points system in general that I feel my system has at least attempted to fix.