Salvage Points System

[Ehran]

Safer, the thing is, all I have seen is "points systems don't work." That's it, that's all people have put. No "points system don't work because of (this), or this other system is better because of (that)." Just a bunch of people saying points system don't work for salvage, and then giving me examples of their own system, many of whom have some serious flaws.

The primary flaw I see with a points system for Salvage is the addition of the crafting materials need to complete the upgrades. This is not like someone showing up every week until they get to lot on Haidate. There is a substantial gil amount attached to some of these upgrades.

There is significant interest in my Salvage group for Ares armor. Who should get the drops first: The person with 100 Goldsmithing or the person who can't afford the 50k to come to Limbus?

[Ryushii]

The primary flaw I see with a points system for Salvage is the addition of the crafting materials need to complete the upgrades. This is not like someone showing up every week until they get to lot on Haidate. There is a substantial gil amount attached to some of these upgrades.

There is significant interest in my Salvage group for Ares armor. Who should get the drops first: The person with 100 Goldsmithing or the person who can't afford the 50k to come to Limbus?

Hmm, that's a good point, but I don't really know exactly how to fix that with any system honestly. Sure, you could do "I point you lot" and only let those with a good income lot, but then those with poor incomes would be left out in the cold and would most likely just not come. Maybe I should implement some sort of plan to help people pay for their expensive things. Any ideas?

Also, as a side note the only 2 items that really require substantial sums of gil are the head and body.

[Ryushii]

doh double post

[Jer]

The primary flaw I see with a points system for Salvage is the addition of the crafting materials need to complete the upgrades. This is not like someone showing up every week until they get to lot on Haidate. There is a substantial gil amount attached to some of these upgrades.

There is significant interest in my Salvage group for Ares armor. Who should get the drops first: The person with 100 Goldsmithing or the person who can't afford the 50k to come to Limbus?

Hmm, that's a good point, but I don't really know exactly how to fix that with any system honestly. Sure, you could do "I point you lot" and only let those with a good income lot, but then those with poor incomes would be left out in the cold and would most likely just not come. Maybe I should implement some sort of plan to help people pay for their expensive things. Any ideas?

Also, as a side note the only 2 items that really require substantial sums of gil are the head and body.

If you are ignoring who can pay to upgrade and who can't, you will see some very upset people. You wonder about leaving the poor ones out in the cold and say they'll stop coming. Have you considered how many people would keep coming that can afford it if those who couldn't got it before them? The time and effort it takes to get, and to finally complete it (in terms of the 3 armors), and they'll end up sitting in somebody's mog locker until who knows how long passes and they come up with the cash.

[Ryushii]

Well, yes. I never said that it wasn't a problem, but I feel that it is unfair to just leave the poorer people out in the cold. The best solution would be to figure out a way to help people make gil for their items, and of course it would be open to anyone no matter their financial situation. ATM I don't have any ideas expect for like LS sponsored BCs and stuff for people to be able to pay for items.

[Ehran]

Well, yes. I never said that it wasn't a problem, but I feel that it is unfair to just leave the poorer people out in the cold. The best solution would be to figure out a way to help people make gil for their items, and of course it would be open to anyone no matter their financial situation. ATM I don't have any ideas expect for like LS sponsored BCs and stuff for people to be able to pay for items.

You're not leaving anyone "out in the cold." They need to learn to set realistic goals for themselves. The WAR who can't pay 50k for Cosmo-cleanse but still *wants* an Ares Body (I have this kid in my Salvage group) isn't being realistic.

Cheapo-WAR-guy will still come to salvage with us. We'll throw him a bone, and he'll get to lot on the common level 15 drops, along with the others. We'll use him as cannon fodder for as long as possible. As soon as we start to come across the rarer level 25/35 drops, those will be going to the people who I know have a realistic chance at completing the upgrade.

IMO, this applies to more than just salvage. Would you let someone lot a E. Body Abj. if they couldn't afford the cursed item? If your LS rolls large enough to buy that kind of stuff for your members, then more power to you. I personally think you will build a stronger shell overall if people are able to fend for themselves. Finding ways to build and maintain a steady source of income is just as much a part of the game as learning how to skillchain.

[Isildur]

Well, yes. I never said that it wasn't a problem, but I feel that it is unfair to just leave the poorer people out in the cold. The best solution would be to figure out a way to help people make gil for their items, and of course it would be open to anyone no matter their financial situation. ATM I don't have any ideas expect for like LS sponsored BCs and stuff for people to be able to pay for items.

You're not leaving anyone "out in the cold." They need to learn to set realistic goals for themselves. The WAR who can't pay 50k for Cosmo-cleanse but still *wants* an Ares Body (I have this kid in my Salvage group) isn't being realistic.

Cheapo-WAR-guy will still come to salvage with us. We'll throw him a bone, and he'll get to lot on the common level 15 drops, along with the others. We'll use him as cannon fodder for as long as possible. As soon as we start to come across the rarer level 25/35 drops, those will be going to the people who I know have a realistic chance at completing the upgrade.

IMO, this applies to more than just salvage. Would you let someone lot a E. Body Abj. if they couldn't afford the cursed item? If your LS rolls large enough to buy that kind of stuff for your members, then more power to you. I personally think you will build a stronger shell overall if people are able to fend for themselves. Finding ways to build and maintain a steady source of income is just as much a part of the game as learning how to skillchain.

so you're basically saying that if some dedicated, highly dependable member of your Salvage group wants to upgrade but cant get the money right now and some IGE-sponsored WAR who shows up periodically from time to time, you're just gonna give this other guy a reward for buying gil to fund armor? this is just a scenario, but seriously now....its like that

[Ryushii]

Well, yes. I never said that it wasn't a problem, but I feel that it is unfair to just leave the poorer people out in the cold. The best solution would be to figure out a way to help people make gil for their items, and of course it would be open to anyone no matter their financial situation. ATM I don't have any ideas expect for like LS sponsored BCs and stuff for people to be able to pay for items.

You're not leaving anyone "out in the cold." They need to learn to set realistic goals for themselves. The WAR who can't pay 50k for Cosmo-cleanse but still *wants* an Ares Body (I have this kid in my Salvage group) isn't being realistic.

Cheapo-WAR-guy will still come to salvage with us. We'll throw him a bone, and he'll get to lot on the common level 15 drops, along with the others. We'll use him as cannon fodder for as long as possible. As soon as we start to come across the rarer level 25/35 drops, those will be going to the people who I know have a realistic chance at completing the upgrade.

IMO, this applies to more than just salvage. Would you let someone lot a E. Body Abj. if they couldn't afford the cursed item? If your LS rolls large enough to buy that kind of stuff for your members, then more power to you. I personally think you will build a stronger shell overall if people are able to fend for themselves. Finding ways to build and maintain a steady source of income is just as much a part of the game as learning how to skillchain.

so you're basically saying that if some dedicated, highly dependable member of your Salvage group wants to upgrade but cant get the money right now and some IGE-sponsored WAR who shows up periodically from time to time, you're just gonna give this other guy a reward for buying gil to fund armor? this is just a scenario, but seriously now....its like that

I agree. But I think you misunderstood what I said. I have no intention of giving some poor player 4mil to buy his Morrigan Body or whatever. I'd definately make him work for it, like through sponsored BCNMs or something that would get him gil but make him put his time and effort into it. I have no intention of throwing out freebies. Also, I was thinking of a system that might be able to sort of self-filter poor people from going after the items that cost 4mil+ to upgrade. It would be to simply not allow people to lot on any more pieces until they upgrade the one they went 3/3 on. Do y'all think this would work?

[Ehran]

so you're basically saying that if some dedicated, highly dependable member of your Salvage group wants to upgrade but cant get the money right now and some IGE-sponsored WAR who shows up periodically from time to time, you're just gonna give this other guy a reward for buying gil to fund armor? this is just a scenario, but seriously now....its like that

Two quick side notes:
1. It has been my experience that if a player is "dedicated and highly dependable" then that person has found a way reliable way to make gil.
2. I believe you should do your damnedest to discourage "periodic" attendance for Salvage, if you hope to be successful.

In our Salvage group, I have the exact two extremes I mentioned: I have the guy who can't afford 50k for Limbus and I have the guy with Goldsmithing @100. They are both interested in the same pieces. It's an easy choice to make in my case, because their attendance is more or less the same. We still keep track of who is in attendance for all of our runs. Attendance is still factored in to discussion about who should be lotting what, but we try to consider the other factors as well.

Hopefully, your leaders will know or suspect enough about the other members of your group to know who is or is not a frequent IGE customer. If that is the case, then I think that still tips the advantage to a non-points based system, because you can tell gil-buyer guy to eff off.

[Ryushii]

so you're basically saying that if some dedicated, highly dependable member of your Salvage group wants to upgrade but cant get the money right now and some IGE-sponsored WAR who shows up periodically from time to time, you're just gonna give this other guy a reward for buying gil to fund armor? this is just a scenario, but seriously now....its like that

Two quick side notes:
1. It has been my experience that if a player is "dedicated and highly dependable" then that person has found a way reliable way to make gil.
2. I believe you should do your damnedest to discourage "periodic" attendance for Salvage, if you hope to be successful.

In our Salvage group, I have the exact two extremes I mentioned: I have the guy who can't afford 50k for Limbus and I have the guy with Goldsmithing @100. They are both interested in the same pieces. It's an easy choice to make in my case, because their attendance is more or less the same. We still keep track of who is in attendance for all of our runs. Attendance is still factored in to discussion about who should be lotting what, but we try to consider the other factors as well.

Hopefully, your leaders will know or suspect enough about the other members of your group to know who is or is not a frequent IGE customer. If that is the case, then I think that still tips the advantage to a non-points based system, because you can tell gil-buyer guy to eff off.

Correction: That still tips the advantage to an "I pick you lot system." not a non-points system in general. There are also rules you can implement to stop people from lotting stuff they can't afford in a points/non-points system.

[safer]

you know... i thought about the cost of upgrading at one point.. but since then it hasnt crossed my mind... however like people have been mentioning, this only really applies to the head and body pieces since other stuff can be farmed, and i plan to help my LS with farming those items once they get their 3/3 on w/e it is...

that being said the "you cant lot anymore until you finish your current upgrade" is actually a really nice idea... it'll stop someone from lotting ares body and instead turn their attention to ares feet or something since they wouldnt want to be locked out from lotting stuff if they did have the ares body pieces

----

now back to your situation ryushii... i didnt realize it was a ls made up of various people outside your main LS and you're right in that it does add to the complications...

now there are alot of rules to your system, and that is not a bad thing as long as people understand it...

couple of things- for the FFA lots.. i dont understand why it would cost points to lot something no one wants... i can see it filtering out the loot whores in a way, but then again.. if no one wants it.. does it matter? also what if no one lots and it auto's to someone, do they lose 2points?

also .. what happens if say someone is top priority for ares body.. and won the lvl15 piece last run, and the next run the lvl35 piece drops .. except he doesnt have enough points (since essentially someone would have to wait 5 runs inbetween lotting) to lot... but no one else is #1 prio for it... do the #2's get to lot over him?

what about first tier people that dont even have enough points.. how do they get to lot stuff?

one thing i do like about incorporating priority's with your system though is that it does allow you to control and focus which runs you do to better serve the needs of the LS.. no point in going after the NM that drops morrigans head if no one really wants it ....

lastly.. ive said it before but i'll say it again... as long as your people accept and understand your system you've put in place.. then its fine tbh... and that goes for anything..... jus look at past BG threads lol.. lolsash / lolwhmnovio / loldrggungir ... we can comment all we want, but in the end it doesnt really matter

[Eldelphia]

If someone wants something they usually find a way. So if it takes 4 million a dedicated player will work their butts off to get it. I've known too many people drive themselves crazy over raising cash for gear.

A player who seems to not have gil issues either focuses a little more on that side of the game or uses their credit card. I've seen both unfortunately.

The worst case is the armour going to someone who can't be bothered and gives up part way through.

I'm usually broke until I need or want something. Then I focus on making some gil, get what I want and drop the gilmaking activities right down to the odd ENM or lucky drop. I work my butt off with my shell though (being its leader) and I know of several others who are the same way.

I'm not going to exclude someone from a dream. Especially if getting those drops really motivates them.

[Ryushii]

Safer,

yeah sorry for not making that clearer

FFA lots cost points to stop everyone from lotting and keeping it to only those who actually care a little about the item vs loot whores. And no, auto-sort doesnt cost points lol.

Well, I honestly doubt that would ever happen for a couple of reasons:
1. I have no intention of fighting any lvl 35 NMs, except by accident, unless someone owns the corresponding lvl25 piece.
2. I seriously doubt that a person who really deserves those items would only have 5 points when they lotted the 15 piece. If that turns out not to be so then I will change the price of items.

But the answet to your question is yes.

Tier 1 people can lot (i think, this may change). People with 0 points cannot.

[Narse]

I'm working on setting up a Salvage system for my LS, and it's definately something that's hard to put a point system on. We use a point system in the LS in general, and for Salvage I've got the following 'rough draft' for a point system:

Basically, it's going to have it's own points system instead of using our current LS points being applicible to Salvage. Salvage is a different beast, and needs to have members be dedicated to Salvage, not just the LS in general.

Points would be gained 1p per run. When an item drops, people bid on the item if they can use it. Bidding would be done in /p, and people can bid up (ex: I bid one point, someone else bids two points, I bid 3 points, someone else matches my bid, and the bid ends, we both lot).

When you have aquired one piece of an item, you get a 'bonus' point on your bid towards a 2nd piece. (ex: I have level 15 X's legs, and level 25 X's legs drop. I bid one point, and state that I have one piece already. This tacks on another point to my bid, making it hold the weight of a 2p bid, but only costing the points of a 1p bid. Someone else would have to bid 2p to lot with me, or 3p to beat my bid of 1p.)

If you have two items already, you gain 3 'bonus' points on your bid for the 3rd and final piece. In addition to this, if you are outbid, and have no more points to beat someone else's bid, you can 'priority' bid it at that person's highest bid, +1, and go negative for the 3rd piece. (ex: I have level 15 and 25 legs, and level 35 legs drop. I have 2 points saved up, and someone else has the level 25 leg piece and 7 points. I bid my 2 points, with my 3 bonus points making it an effective 5 points. The other person bids 5 points and with his +1 bonus, has 6 points and can effectively outbid me. If I decide that the item is worth the points, I can choose to have priority because I'm 2/3 on the item, and get the item for an effective 7 point bid to beat his bid (4points +3 bonus), putting me at -2 points.

Of course, he can go all the way up to his full 7p +1 bonus and have an effective 8p bid to beat my bid, but I can go negative even more if I decide that the item is worth it, unless it's to beat someone else's lot who also is 2/3 on the item.

Being that it's not just a Salvage LS, but a branch of our main LS, I don't see an issue with people going negative and then not going to any more Salvage because they're too far negative or because they got their item now. Worst case, I can deduct their main LS points to compensate for their negative Salvage points, I guess.

As far as money goes in upgrading, the LS provides funding on cursed items for LS points, and we could offer the same service for members here, so no pieces are wasted because a member has no money to upgrade.

I realize that for most Salvage LSes this setup may not be ideal, but I think for my LS this will be a good system, and thought I'd share it for people that it'll help.

[Ryushii]

Yeah, I think I'm starting to see that a salvage lotting systems goes alot based on case by case. There is a huge difference in a system for a reg LS that does salvage and a LS that just does salvage.